About a dozen people carrying guns, including one with a military-style rifle, milled among protesters outside the convention center where President Barack Obama was giving a speech Monday - the latest incident in which protesters have openly displayed firearms near the president.
Gun-rights advocates say they're exercising their constitutional right to bear arms and protest, while those who argue for more gun control say it could be a disaster waiting to happen.
Phoenix police said the gun-toters at Monday's event, including the man carrying an AR-15 semi-automatic rifle slung over his shoulder, didn't need permits. No crimes were committed, and no one was arrested.
The man with the rifle declined to be identified but told The Arizona Republic that he was carrying the assault weapon because he could. ``In Arizona, I still have some freedoms,'' he said.
I am sorry, but WTF?
Since when do we allow people to come ANYWHERE near our President while packing heat? When did THAT become okay?
Was it when we dared to elect a black man to office?
You know maybe I am missing something here, but considering the incredible amount of racism that we have been exposed to lately, I would say that with an African American President in office that it is EVEN MORE IMPORTANT TO KEEP ASSHOLES WITH GUNS AWAY FROM HIM! I am sorry, was I yelling?
Well somebody needs to yell. This is absolute bullshit!
And don't hand me that second amendment crap either. I have no problem with you owning a gun. Just keep it away from our President! Is that too much to ask?
Jesus!
And do you know what? It is not just happening around Obama, it is happening EVERYWHERE.
I saw a bunch of morons with holsters attached to their hips during Sarah Palin's last picnic in Anchorage, and again outside of the Egan Center when they were voting on the stimulus money, and again outside of the De'Naina Center when Senator Begich was inside talking about health care reform. Why? Were they frightened of something?
Look I live in Alaska, I have SEEN people walking around the streets of Anchorage with holsters before. But THIS is different. These guys all dress in the same t-shirts bragging about their 2nd amendment rights and mill around the crowd just waiting for somebody to give them shit about it.
These guys are looking for trouble. And somebody is going to get hurt.
And it will not be President Obama.
Or Senator Begich.
It will be somebodies child, or their wife, or just some guy walking around minding his own business. And when that happens just wait and see how well that 2nd amendment argument holds up in court with the family of a dead child sitting across the room from you.
And see how much that now confiscated weapon protects you while serving time in prison for manslaughter.
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Agreed. Was reading an article over on rawstory.com about the Arizona rifle-toting man. Said there were TWELVE people with guns altogether. A former secret service man couldn't believe people were this stupid, and Joe Klein said in all his 40 years of punditry, he couldn't believe what he was seeing, either. He said, (something to this effect) just like the 1st Amendment, where it's illegal to yell 'FIRE' in a theater, there should be some limitations on the 2nd amendment, too...such as...bringing a loaded weapon to a Presidential rally. You'd think that was just common sense, though.
ReplyDeleteI don't think it's really the person who brought the gun I'm so worried about, it's the person who SEES the gun, and in all their moronic brilliance, is able to wrestle it away from the legal gun holder and start shooting up the place...
...I have to wonder though...what if people had been carrying guns at Bush rallies--or Cheney--or Rumsfeld...Would they have been detained, arrested, or let walk around in the crowd...?
Thank you for this post. My husband and I ware as outraged and stunned as you are. When did common sense vanish in this country?
ReplyDeletePerhaps the non-gun toting majority ought to be asking about our rights?
After all, assault is a legal concept that is based upon fear of your safety - reasonable fear. I think it is reasonable to fear for our personal safety when we are in public with a group of folks carrying loaded firearms who are exhibiting signs of anger and agitation.
Who is to say that the person carrying a loaded sidearm is sane or mature enough to do so safely?
Who is to guarantee that the person with the rifle or the handgun strapped to their leg is in total control of that weapon? Seems to be a kid or a wacko could easily disarm the owner of the gun and use it to harm others in a crowd.
I read that a huge percentage of gun-related deaths and injuries come from guns that criminals take away from folks who own the guns - not just steal them out of a cabinet or a drawer, but just snatch them away as the owner is holding the gun. Gees.
We don't see many guns out in the open here in Johnson County KS but we know people can legally carry them thanks to a deranged group of Republican state legislators who passed laws allowing non-concealed weapons almost everywhere - soon to be in bars (ah, alcohol and guns - what a great combination). However, I would be loath to attend rallies or any public gatherings (even churches) where guns are as obvious as those we've seen at town hall meetings lately.
This is not the Wild West - not even in Alaska. There are reasons gun laws were passed prohibiting concealed and non-concealed guns unless you were a police officer or a PI.
Gees, if people want to play with guns, they should join the military and go play war for real. My husband thinks the folks we're seeing lately are just too cowardly to do that.
Again, thanks for voicing what so many of us think. You are on point as usual!
I love it when you are angry! Go Gryphen. .. and Namaste.
ReplyDeleteI am a firm believer in the right to bear arms, but as you said this is pure and total bullshit to allow this to happen around the president.
ReplyDeleteThe man gets over 30 death threats a day and for any state or the feds to allow this is unconscionable. I don’t give a shit what the laws say, the laws don’t apply when the president is around. At least they shouldn’t.
These dickheads should be arrested. We can open carry here and in many states, BUT there are still places that one cannot open or conceal carry regardless – such and state and federal buildings or any building that houses federal offices.
As far as those packing around Palin’s activities she most likely encouraged that to intimidate others from speaking out against her at her events. They’re as brain dead as she is.
These idiots want to exercise their rights, but don’t seem to realize they are making the fight tougher by attending these events with their loaded weapons. If we do lose the right to bear arms we can thank these assholes for causing it.
Gryphen, I was "Boots on the ground" in Phoenix yesterday.There were two persons with semi-automatic A-15's and one of the interviewers had a holstered hand gun.I can tell you that the two sides were kept totally apart from one another. We Happy Little Socialists had shade and places to rest and the Tea Baggers had lots of our famous Phoenix sunshine!! The police were everywhere and not one of us ever came anywhere near the President. Not one of us saw hide nor hair of him unless we caught him on the evening news . Sadly, Gun laws in Arizona are some of the most (pardon the expression) liberal in the country. They were within their rights to carry their guns openly in public. I can also tell you that every person carrying a firearm had at least two officers watching him (or her) like a hawk, ready to pounce if he even moved funny. The gun toters had a right to feel nervous. We outnumbered them about 10-1 and drowned them out handily.
ReplyDeleteSunshine- in answer to your last question, I'm thinking they would have been wrestled to the ground, tortured and grilled.
ReplyDeleteI couldn't believe it either! Since when is it OK to walk around exhibiting weapons?? It made me very uncomfortable watching the news reels on TV. I can only imagine how peeps must have felt standing near these brazen jerks. That intimidation is infringing on someone else's right to free comfortable and safe to attend a rally. WTF??
We own a gun as well but it doesn't see the light of day (so to speak). We live out in a rural area and the police department is waaaay on the other side of town. I hope I never have to use it to defend myself but I'm thankful that I have the right to own it.
Thank you for this post...I could not have said it better myself.
ReplyDeleteIf the government can close down the airspace over where the president is speaking they sure must be able to restrict firearms from a rally. Just because you have the right to make love to your spouse at home doesn't give you the right to do it in a shopping mall. If this had happened when Bush was president the gun toters would already be in Gitmo for an indefinite vacation!
ReplyDeleteIf I had openly carried a gun that close to GW Bush, I would have been slammed to the ground and hauled off to some torture chamber, where the Evil One would have had his way with me.
ReplyDeleteThis is the thing I have been more worried about lately; even tops health care. I don't care what Sarah Palin, the NRA, or Cry Baby Beck says there is no way our forefathers had AK-47s in mind when they drafted the Second Amendment. There is not a reason on the face of this earth for any private citizen to have any sort of assault weapon. This is total insanity. You are right Gryphen, someone is going get hurt or worse; someone is going to get killed.
ReplyDeleteGyphen , I think you hit it on the nail with "Was it when we dared to elect a black man to office?" I truly believe this would not be happening otherwise. All this hatred makes me sick to my stomach.
ReplyDeleteMan, Gryphen, I believe in second amendment rights but this is way over the top. And they couldn't do more to lose those rights than to act threatening and scare the shit out of people. Or worse.
ReplyDeleteHey Gryphen..I'm with you on this one...
ReplyDeleteA bad thing just waiting to happen ..
We can thank all those hannity,becks,o'reily.limpdicks out there..
Yep, these morons have the right to bear arms. They also have the right to go to a child's funeral and make crude animal noises during the eulogy. Having a right and the responsible use of that right are two different things, a complicated concept these idiots seem unable to grasp. If they continue this reckless game, one of two things will happen. One of their number, who aren't known for their emotional maturity, will become angry and shoot someone or one of these loons will carelessly or intentionally point the weapon and have several Secret Service sharpshooters splatter their chest all over the sidewalk. I own guns and support gun rights, but if these yahoos want to play cowboy, they should head out to the desert alone where the only things likely to get hurt are some beer bottles and their own feet.
ReplyDeleteThey use to bring nooses to hang in the trees, and burn crosses at political events to discourage debate.
ReplyDeleteYou carry a firearm to protect yourself in the event that police are not readily available. There are police at these events, but the police are now burdened by babysitting gun toters, and are not able to effectively do their job.
These adolescent displays will lead to more rules when and where you can tote. These people have shot themselves in the foot, and is quite obvious there will need to be more stringent rules concerning mental adequacy of those that are allowed permits.
Texas~ You hit the nail on the head...
ReplyDeleteIt's a black and white thing going on...It will not stop until they have accomplised their goal..I really fear for our Pres. nuff said..
There is a mistaken belief that if everybody has a gun then everybody is equally safe. Not true. If everybody has a gun, then everybody is equally UNsafe. Americans seem to have trouble understanding that.
ReplyDeleteWhoa, a lot of assumptions are being made here. I DO agree that carrying a weapon (especially an AR-15) where the President is appearing is a bit over the top, and, even tho I possess a conceal carry permit, would not have done so.
ReplyDeleteBut, just for the sake of being the devil's advocate, let's consider the gun-toters were concerned about the President's safety. We have all heard about the "crazies" and "whackos" bellowing their bullshit and threats at rallies. The Secret Service guys/police can't be everywhere. And, good on the police for keeping an eye on them.
Let's reflect a minute about where Lee Harvey Oswald was - hidden in a building, out of sight, with a rifle.Not standing on the curb waiting for the motorcade. We all know the outcome of that. Then there was John Hinckley Jr, who pulled a gun from concealment to attempt to assassinate Ronald Reagan.
Folks, we can't peer into the minds of people around us to determine if they are going to harm us. There are many accounts in the MSM about seemingly nice, sane people doing horrible things. And often their neighbors and loved ones reflect about them and say "he/she was such a nice person. However, there are also accounts in the MSM about lives being saved by a responsible citizen who just happened to carrying a weapon and stepped up to the assistance of a fellow human being.
I would certainly have not been nervous, or afraid, of the people carrying guns at Palin's picnic. Wearing a hat or shirt with the 2nd Amendment on it is not my style, however. But I may be exercising my right to the concealed-carrying of a weapon.
Gryphen, you stated in your post "Was it when we dared to elect a black man to office?" From the picture I saw on the Drudge Report, one of the rifle toters appears to be a black man...
Finally, Anon @12:48. I really take umbrage at what you stated in your post:
"Gees, if people want to play with guns, they should join the military and go play war for real. My husband thinks the folks we're seeing lately are just too cowardly to do that." I am a Viet Nam era veteran, having served 21 years in the Air Force. There is no "playing war or playing with guns in the military." I was a medic during my time of service and have seen first hand the realities of war. The cowards are the Oswalds and Hinckleys of the world. The cowards are the gangstas who kill people as an initiation into their scum-bag gains.
Brett in Alaska
I think this is about intimidation and instilling fear in those who wish to peacefully rally.
ReplyDeleteI can't do it any longer. I can no longer tolerate the public gun-totin', uneducated, fear and hate mongering masses.
ReplyDeleteI won't call them out for being trailer dwelling idiots, because quite frankly, many of them surpass my income level in their blue collar jobs.
I will call them stupid, non thinking hateful sheep that don't seek out information themselves. They merely suckle the teat of Fox News and suck up the pablum that leaks from that ultimate nipple of stupidity.
Why aren't these people more skeptical and curious and willing to absorb knowledge?
I am related to some of them and I know that there is a vast gulf between their brain power and mine and I'm not ashamed to say it. These people operate on a brain stem level....just your basic functions and no more or they might short circuit!
I'm just getting really, really angry at the lack of inquisitiveness and self-motivation exhibited by the far right.
I know they are a minority and they are upset but now they are brandishing weapons at public events and that's just not acceptable.
My long haired hippie husband is a strong proponent of the 2nd amendment and while I've never shot a gun before we have one and he is adamant that no one take that right away from us. We would not however carry our 30 ought 6 to a public gathering for any reason what so ever....I just don't get these people and I never ever will and now I'm just mad and rambling so I'll stop.
What is it about the President being half-white that these hateful racists don't get?
ReplyDeleteI totally agree with you gryphen.
ReplyDeletewtf is wrong with people that they think they need to carry a gun to a presidential event? they've totally lost it.
I am reading the book "Nature's End" at the moment, and inside there a great quote that I thought was very appropriate for these times - these times where we have crazies spouting total lies and bullshit at health care meetings, these times when nutjobs think that carrying guns is the most important issue of the day...
"No man hates so much as the man who has had his illusions taken from him."
I believe this is what exactly is going on with these people. they think the america they know and love is being taken from them, but in reality that america never existed. it was an illusion all along, and now that illusion is being wiped away by reality. they're lost. and they're clinging...
It is poranoid idiots such as these that are the Poster Boys for actions that threaten the second ammendment. How can any sane person possibly think this action will fortify their postion?
ReplyDeleteGramian has a report & pictures of the AZ mudpuppies on the ground in Phoenix at
ReplyDeletehttp://healthylookathealthcare.blogspot.com/
It really bothered me too. Thanks Gryphen.
ReplyDeleteThere is a new poll on the CNN political ticker. Most Americans thought it was a bad idea politically for Sarah to resign (quit) her jib and not finish it. 51% of Republicans feltj this way. And her approval ratings keep going down!
aussie blue sky @ 2:32 I totally agree. "guns will keep you safe" is one of the biggest loads of sh*t ever. why do these people want to live in a world where everyone carries a gun? it's lunacy.
ReplyDeleteI feel the same way. Unarmed protesters were arrested for simply questioning bush and dick's right to attack an innocent country, yet it's OK for these jackasses to be showing what big shots they are with Obama? Come on now some common sense is in order!
ReplyDeleteIf they can declare restricted air space, certainly, they can restrict ground space. As a resident of Az, it makes me nervous when I see this display of weaponry. It was this person's right to carry a visible firearm, but he clearly wanted to send a message and it had little to do with the 2nd amendment. Last time the family dined out, a guy came in sat at the booth next to us, and he's sporting a 9ml Glock. Then I offer a silent prayer that the chef doesn't screw up his order. And we didn't stick around for dessert.
ReplyDeleteThe one guy with the assault rifly being interviewed -- the interviewer has known him for 2 years. The interviewer also has a radio show. It was pre-arranged that they show up "packing". There is video of interview (haven't found but seen on CNN Sanchez show) where they are seen together before arrive outside interviewing. They supposedly contacted the police on Friday advising they would be attending with guns. Supposedly one of the cops was assigned to them and was always within 4 feet or so.
ReplyDeleteStill not right as things could go terribly wrong. Public had no idea this was pre-arranged. Gun was also not secure - strap over shoulder hanging on to it no different that a woman carrying a shoulderbag.
from TPM:
ReplyDelete"It was only a matter of time. While "Chris" was the guy who carried around the assault rifle at the Obama event in Phoenix yesterday, it appears to have been another guy, Ernest Hancock, who organized the whole thing. And Hancock, who was also on the scene with a holstered handgun, turns out to have had very close ties to a 90s-era Arizona militia group called the 'Viper Militia' most of whose members were eventually sent to federal prison on various weapons and explosives charges tied to plans to bomb federal buildings."
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2009/08/az_gun-toters_tied_to_violent_90s_era_militia.php
Further to my other post setting out info about vid available on guy packing the AK as it was pre-arranged, finally able to get link to CNN interview as to the one guy carrying assault rifle. Note too the interviewer was packing.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/us/2009/08/18/sanchez.hancock.guns.cnn
Interviewer has radio show - 'Declare Your Independence with Ernest Hancock' who is a Libertarian Activist, Former Candidate - Republic Broadcasting Network. Website: FreedomsPhoenix.com
Another interview of this Chris B. who is not from Arizona
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjatqPkZdrU
That was a prearranged show. They are Libertarians doing political theater of the absurd.
ReplyDeleteIf everybody carries a gun someone will want to one up. Next grenades will be necessary for these crazies. They would be terrified if everyone had a gun. What are they going to do send their children out in the world unarmed? Not if Dr. Laura has her way. She wants all schools to have male students with guns. She was serious, see how she raised her son. She doesn't think girls should learn to shoot, however.
Yikes...I love the 2nd amendment but unfortunatley COMMON SENSE is not a mandatory part of responsible gun ownership.
ReplyDeleteI tote when required, which is very very RARELY.
The best way to spin this back at the idiots who are obviously trying to incite something, is to show them they did what they did, and they STILL have their right to keep and bear arms. The gestapo didnt take away their guns.
BUT, The moment any inkling of ANY sort of problem manifests itself from these kooks, the Secret Service should ARREST them, or SHOOT to KILL if they draw their weapons.
NO WEAPONS should be allowed inside the designated Secret Service security area, and they should be relegated to an area kinda like the fenced in protest areas at the G-7 if they want to bond and make a group statement.
They arrested Cindy Sheehan for CAMPING near the W!
BANG!
Locked, Loaded and Liberal!
Today on MSNBC, Chris Matthews interviewed Allan Gottlieb of the Second Amendment Foundation, their website is www.saf.org
ReplyDeleteAs I watched this chubby little guy with a bow tie and over-sized 80s style eyeglasses I thought to myself "teenie weenie".
Then I read Gryph's headline "I am a little insecure in my manhood" and I thought to myself BINGO!
@AKMOM. I glad to say I don't fit the stereo-type you described in the first paragraph of your comment! Nor do any of my friends or family.
ReplyDeleteI would say however, that fear-mongering is evident in the comment made by Anon @3:26. Could that guy have been an undercover or off-duty police officer? Secret Service agent? A Loomis guard? But a silent prayer that the chef gets his order right and not sticking around for dessert is no way to go through life! Do you fear a person walking with a cane? He/She may have a sword hidden in the handle!
Okay, I'm being sarcastic. But, not everyone is as AKPETMOM described.
I am NOT a "right-winger" and actually am a Whig: Fiscally responsible, strong on defense, and socially liberal.
Brett in Alaska
Exactly Gryphen! When GW was President, he not only had events by INVITATION ONLY he also had anyone removed that made a peep about disagreeing with his policy or Administration. If this would have been a GW rally you would not have been able to get near this event with a gun and you'd have been thrown in jail.
ReplyDeleteBut here we have Obama, the same man they are freaking out will take away their guns and their rights.........is he trying to shut down their freedoms? Is he prescreening? Is he limiting people's right to voice their opinion? NO!
It will be only be a matter of time before some innocent bystander is hurt or killed if local police don't stamp this out in their communities.
Just disgusting that we think we can judge the behavior of extremists in Muslim or foreign countries while America is full of extremists.
Maybe we should just find a little chunk of un-used land right now and let all the Whiteys moves there and take their guns with them. Then they'll have the perfect world they so desperately seek.
Well said Gryphen. I'm all for 2nd Amendment Rights but these psychos strapping on guns are not just about the 2nd Amendment - it's because we have black in the WH and they've been terrorized since it was apparent he would be elected. Everybody knows that. I'm worried about the bystanders. I'm 66, when I was 4 years old, living in Altus, OK, population probably less tha 5000, I went to the grocery store with my aunt. Broad daylight. The store owner's brother walked in, gun in hand & shot his brother. A stray bullet also shot a 6 year old girl in the stomach. She recovered. Can't remember if the store owner did or not - we moved shortly after that but not because of that. A stray bullet hit the mayonnaise display - I was close enough to get mayo splattered all over my coat. I wasn't traumatized but I could have been dead - so could the other child. The President has the best protection available (although look how many presidents have been shot in the past) but what about the innocent bystanders? 62 years later, I clearly remember seeing that man at the end of the grocery aisle, saw the gun and remember the shots. Of course, he had the "right" to have that gun. What about our rights? Bystanders rights don't kick in unless & until we're shot.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDeleteWhat is it about the President being half-white that these hateful racists don't get?
________________________________________
The other half isn't white, that's all they care about. How about not seeing his color at all, but instead we judge him on his actions? Oh right, forgot that just his skin color.
I agree with Gryphen! These assholes have no right to bring a gun anywhere near a president.
ReplyDeleteIf I saw one on the street I would think a criminal and call the po-po! In cali a woman was killed for brandishing a vegetable peeler by the police! Recently a man was shot dead, the cop thought he was reaching for a gun. If these assholes come here They will lose their 2nd amendment rights b/c they will be dead!
And for you Anon that "maybe they were just trying to protect the president" good one...
Like these assholes would ever do that. They want to harm him b/c he's black. Oh half black.
That's the bottom line, racist.
open carry == small genitalia
ReplyDeleteThere should be no guns allowed inside the secret service area...this is not right it is a matter of intimidation/fear....if everyone is packing then we're all on even ground...but an Aassault weapon, nonsecured assault weapon...I hate guns but say you want to have a small holstered pistol with you around town but not an unsecured assault rifle bullshit!!!!
ReplyDeletesomeone on another website said lets all being chainsaws, axes, saws,etc to a rally near us...makes about the same amt of sense.....none
We need to go to whitehouse.gov and express our displeasure
It was a stunt staged by a....wait for it....conservative right wing radio whackjob.
ReplyDeleteDid you have any doubts?
Another AZ viewpoint: This is NORMAL for this state (Kyl and McInsane remember?) This was done to attempt to intimidate.
ReplyDeleteOne of the interesting figures now coming out from the Phoenix rally is that the PRO Obama protesters outnumbered the ANTI's considerably.
AZ considers itself the Republican Wild West. It is a very weird place to live. I'd guess it has more than it's share of crazies and they do love their guns which they carry openly. It makes their penis feel good.
This little "show of force" is all racial. This state is one of THE most racist states in the country. They HATE the brown people, black, Hispanic...doesn't matter. They hate them all.
This is the Wild West and it's filled with lots and lots of old soldiers who are closer to their weapon than their wife - and they're still fighting WWII only the new enemy is a brown person.
Crazies as loons? Right .. Our "Sheriff" just raided and stole the COUNTY computers. That's right, they sent a force into a county faciity - armed - and removed COUNTY computers because there was a jail database on the system. The Sheriff is a County Sheriff. He is also a fruitcake who even has a tank.
God help us all if the rest of the country goes the way of Arizona.
I also suspect that there were at least 4 marksmen with their sights on each of the heads of these guys packing. If they had even moved towards their weapon, they would have been immediately been taken out. Remember the sharpshooters who took out the Somali pirates - 3 single shots simultaneously? I'll bet the guys in the buildings surrounding the President in Phoenix were just as good and just as accurate and the guys carrying their weapons knew it too.
ReplyDeleteGood post, needed to said. The armed guys would not have been allowed within 5 miles of GWB, if not arrested outright. Thease guys are 'packing' for intimidation, plain and simple.
ReplyDeleteWhile I do not own a gun, I am all for the right to bear arms to protect your property, family, and for hunting. But, these guys make a mockery of our Second Ammendment Rights. I think that if an I.Q. test was necessary to own a gun, they clearly would not make the cut.
ReplyDeleteThese guys must have really small pee pees to feel the need to carry a gun at a peaceful rally. I mean, if they thought that they could be in harm's way at these rallies, they should have stayed at home. And that guy with the semi automatic, well, he must be impotent. These guys don't carry a gun to protect themselves, these guys look for trouble. These are the ones that we need to protect ourselves from.
did you see this video? http://thinkprogress.org/2009/08/18/hitler-israel/
ReplyDeletesick.
In years past people were arrested for just shouting at Bush, and as I recall people in AZ were arrested for shouting and wearing opposition t-shirts against Bush. Arrested by the Republican sheriff Joe Arpaio, where was Joe Arpaio when Obama was in town?
ReplyDeleteGryph -- I love your blog and read it every day. However, I am offended by your "Jesus!" exclamation and hope you will be sensitive to the liberals (and others) in your audience who also are of the Christian persuasion. Thanks for your consideration.
ReplyDeleteP.S. Drop the "F" bomb anytime, however. :-)
Best thing that could happen is for a gunfight to start between Obama supporters and Obama haters. That way a few people will get shot, maybe even a child, but think of how many lives of innocent children will be saved if Americans finally smarten up and end this gungoon behaviour.
ReplyDeleteGryphen, THANK YOU so much, for expressing my thoughts so clearly!
ReplyDeleteEvery day, I watch these reports on the news and online, and just wonder WTF is happening to our country?
Sad and scary!
The guy carrying the assault rifle "because he could", and William Kostric - the guy with the 'tree of liberty' sign the other day - BOTH said they voted for Ron Paul.
ReplyDeleteWhen is Ron Paul going to reject & denounce this bullsh*t his followers are promulgating?
Wow, just wow! The comments on this post went from an almost rational dialogue concerning the lack of common sense demonstrated by the open-carry crowd, to the assumption that they are anti-President Obama due to racism (and yet someone posted about having the "whiteys" move to some unused land-racist statement?), and then on to police shooting a person in CA for wielding a vegetable peeler, sheriff misbehavior, and guttering to equating penis size/manhood to carrying a weapon.
ReplyDeleteI am a faithful reader of this blog, and for some time have thoroughly enjoyed the thoughtful, rational dialogue that has taken place by many of the regular commenters on this post.
I must say, however, that many of the comments today sound so very much like the ones on the right-wingnut blogs (C4P for example) that we are critical of in our on-going conversations.
Stay classy (please?)
Brett in Alaska
Without exception, none of the irrational gun nuts that I have ever encountered have been able to come up with an explanation for the first half of the second amendment. The vast majority of them simply ignore it, as if it were unimportant. The rest either claim that shithead posses like the Michigan Militia or Posse Comitatus are the modern equivalents of constitutional militias.
ReplyDeleteThe authors of the second amendment were not stupid. If they had wanted an absolute right to firearms, they could have and would have said so clearly and succinctly. That they chose to word it as an ablative absolute clause, with “the right of the people to keep and bear Arms” being conditional upon the first half of the sentence cannot be blithely dismissed. If you support the second half of the second amendment, you must also acknowledge - and respect to an equal degree - the first half. If they had intended the right to be absolute, they could have easily omitted the first 13 words. They did not.
There are others who maintain that the second amendment is a kind of self destruct option that allows citizens to overthrow the government if they become dissatisfied. That bullshit argument was settled at the conclusion of the Civil War. The problem with that position is that is cedes absolute power to any single individual or group that is sufficiently well armed. That denies the very existence of democracy. Under that scenario, the group with the most firepower and/or the element of surprise gets to forcibly reshape the nation according to their whim and fancy, the rest of the country be damned. That is Fascism, not democracy and it would quickly denigrate into a sort of Lord of the Flies anarchy with absolute violence as the coin of the realm. Unfortunately, many of the gun nuts are absolutists who loathe democracy and would gladly accept a dictator that was in line with their views.
There are those that have posited that the second amendment was adopted as a means of preserving slavery, as one of the primary functions of the southern militias was the retrieval of runaway slaves. If this indeed was even part of the rationale for the adoption of the second amendment, this would seem to taint it with the stench of racism.
The formation of our country and the crafting and ratification of the Constitution were inextricably linked to the preservation of the institution of slavery. The largely anti-slavery New England colonies knew that they could not break free from English rule without the unity of all of the colonies, North and South. They entered into a Faustian bargain with the pro-slave Southern colonies as the price for independence from England. The next “four score and seven years” was a time during which Northern states felt increasingly subservient to the slave states, with compromise after compromise being made to placate slave masters. With the backing of federal law, the Fugitive Slave Act of 1793 essentially rendered the laws of Southern states as being superior to those of the North. This made the Civil War inevitable.
I find it curious that at this moment in time, a subset of the rabid moron Republicans are pushing this “we have the right to shake off tyranny because we’re armed” nonsense. It is not merely liberalism that they object to. They weren’t this excited about liberals at any other time in the recent past. What is different now than say, during the Clinton presidency? I find it difficult to come to any other conclusion than it is because our president is black. The odious notions of racism and secession are openly reunited once again in the actions of the lunatic fringe which has been mobilized to action by the Republican Party and its proxy agents of fear and disinformation.
These clowns are not defending democracy or exercising their rights, they are engaging in thinly veiled threats of violence. If they succeed, then our democracy is finished. Their tactics are the most potent arguments for some sort of gun control. They are a threat to our rights and to our lives.
You hear Levin, Rush, Fox, etc. complaining, their calling us mobs, crazy, etc. just because we want to to debate against socialism and the Marxist taking over. Well they are acting badly and they didn't think anyone would notice?
ReplyDeleteWhat if a bunch of gang members showed up with their guns? Would they feel intimidated? Then they would cry Obama sent his thugs waiting for one of us to make one wrong move so they could justify killing us, that's what he wants to do take away all of our freedoms and shut us up.
This really is getting old, complaining about everything and making stuff up. Do they really think this bad behavior will win them any votes? They must think whoever lies the most, and screams the loudest wins.
It would be one thing if they were arguing about facts, but instead we have to waste time to combat all their lies.
Brett in AK @ 9:42
ReplyDeleteJust so you know I'm not "makin' things up"
http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2009/05/29/18598965.php
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/04/MN0R153LGU.DTL
Here if your walkin' around with a gun, you are presumed to be a "bad guy" and shot. Shoot first ask questions later. I would love to see those bozo's come packin' around here.
As usual those idiots are abusing the 2nd amendment "the right to bear arms" doesn't mean you walk around in public with a gun. If you saw someone walking around with a machete/ax, would you think that ok? No you would think him crazy Lizzy Borden! Like I said...people have been shot for brandishing vegetable peelers, in cali....
Gasman@11:02pm-Very well said, and very true,Thanks.
ReplyDeletegasman, excellent post.
ReplyDeletejo said: You hear Levin, Rush, Fox, etc. complaining, their calling us mobs, crazy, etc. just because we want to to debate against socialism and the Marxist taking over. Well they are acting badly and they didn't think anyone would notice?
ReplyDeleteWhat if a bunch of gang members showed up with their guns? Would they feel intimidated? Then they would cry Obama sent his thugs waiting for one of us to make one wrong move so they could justify killing us, that's what he wants to do take away all of our freedoms and shut us up.
That's what these fat blabbering Fox hatemongers are saying about the unions stepping up and supporting the health care reform discussion. I've never been a member of a union, but I certainly recognize the good most unions have done for their members.
As far as I can tell, the unions are the biggest block of health-care-reform supporters out there (so it's no wonder they're being attacked by the right).
@Gasman, 11:02 - Great analysis! That was a good read.
ReplyDelete@crystalwolf aka caligrl, 6:49. Thanks for your response! No way did I think you were "makin' things up." You live there and are commenting on events you have knowledge of. I'm not sure, but when I lived there, I don't think CA allows open carry and certainly anyone walking around with a firearm WOULD be suspect!
My point was that we got sidetracked from a coherent discussion of the 2nd Amendment and the bozos walking around with weapons at an inappropriate venue. And yes, if I saw someone walking around with a machete/ax, I would be VERY concerned (and hopefully, in accordance with my conceal carry permit, be able to protect my family and others if the person with the machete/ax decides to use it on someone). As a citizen responder, I may be able to save someone's life until the police arrive.
To continue the privilege of having a conceal carry permit, I follow the rules as delineated by the State of Alaska to the letter. I don't wear it openly, except of course when I'm hiking/fishing/riding atvs. I'm not a hunter.
I do not view myself as a hero, a vigilante, a whacko right wing gun toter. But there is no way in hell am I, or my family, or anyone else in the vicinty going to be a victim if I can help it!!!
Just to be clear, it isn't shoot first and ask questions later. I DO NOT want to do prison time!!!
There are steps one MUST take before shooting, and the primary one is that there must be an ACTUAL attack taking place,with a weapon, and it can't be a fist fight, someone w/o a weapon, or verbally assaulting you, etc. It is pretty much the same algorithm the police follow.
Brett in Alaska
Brett, you sound like a responsible gun owner who would try to help the President, not like these wingnuts open carrying their AK 47's! Even if it is ok to open carry it is not safe, especially around where the President is! I'm sure the sharpshooters where watching closely. Its just irresponsilbe to do such a thing...why take a gun to where the President is speaking? To me its creepy seeing these guys walking around with guys strapped on. I respect a person right to own a gun, if they have a permit (which means they have been trained, in safety) carry also. I have no problem, but how many of these bozos walking around open carrying do you really were responsible enough to take a lesson in gun safely every year? Probably none. Or a citzen responder like yourself. We need in this country more reposponible citzens like yourself.
ReplyDeleteThanks for your response, Brett.
I forgot where I saw it, maybe the NYT's, but the guy with the assault rifle was linked to right wing radio. He works for one of the hate stations.
ReplyDelete"I also suspect that there were at least 4 marksmen with their sights on each of the heads of these guys packing. If they had even moved towards their weapon, they would have been immediately been taken out. "
ReplyDeleteI'm sure you are right but that is not the point. These people are doing this to send a message to the President and we who support him. Like a bunch of psychotic 3 year olds, they are saying that if Obama pushes his agenda, they'll and we'll have to answer to their little friends.
NOT gonna happen! And to the other poster about Bush and demonstrators, you are right. Jon Stewart had it on Tuesday night. Two people wore anti-Bush t-shirts and were arrested.
Thanks for this post, Gryphen, and for those who have left such reasonable comments here. I have never believed in gun registration, I think people ought to be able to own as many guns as they can afford to buy, and they should be able to pack them when and where they have a legitimate need to do so. Calm, rational people who carry a gun tucked safely out of sight don't worry me in the least. But I, too, am very worried about the recent trend toward carrying unsecured weapons to public places and events just to make a statement. The paranoia level and mob mentality at some of these events is frightening enough without introducing firearms into the mix, and I doubt most of those openly packing have any idea how easy it would be for their firearm to be taken from them and used in a way they never intended. Sooner or later, some innocent bystander will get hurt or killed, and those promoting gun registration and the banning of guns will have more support for doing so. The gun toters will have no one to blame but themselves.
ReplyDeleteTrue patriots respect the system set up by our founding fathers, that our veterans have fought and died for, and when they think something can be changed for the better, they write their congressional delegation, or show up at public meetings armed with the facts and their brains and they calmly make specific suggestions about how to improve the legislation being proposed or about what is already on the books that they object to. Seeking to stifle discussion by intimidation or drowning out the voices of those with differing opinions is neither constructive, nor patriotic, and those engaging in such tactics should be ashamed of themselves.
Valley Independent