Monday, December 05, 2011

Psst! Not to panic any of you Christians, but you should know that the person sitting beside you in church, just MIGHT be an atheistic scientist. Boo!

Courtesy of Live Science:

They may not find much meaning in the birth of Jesus Christ, but many atheists embrace religious traditions such as churchgoing for the sake of the children, a new study finds. 

The research, which focused on atheist scientists, found that 17 percent of atheists in the study attended a religious service more than once a year. The atheists embraced religious traditions for social and personal reasons, they told the study researchers. 

The atheist parents surveyed had multiple reasons for attending religious services in the absence of religious belief. Some said their spouse or partner was religious, and encouraged them to go to services as well. Others said they enjoyed the community that attending a church, mosque, temple or other religious institution can bring. 

Perhaps most interesting, Ecklund said, was that many atheist scientists take their children to religious services so that the kids can make up their own mind about God and spirituality. 

"We thought that these individuals might be less inclined to introduce their children to religious traditions, but we found the exact opposite to be true," Ecklund said. "They want their children to have choices, and it is more consistent with their science identity to expose their children to all sources of knowledge." 

For example, one study participant raised in a strongly Catholic home said he later came to believe that science and religion were not compatible. But rather than passing that belief onto his daughter, he said, he wanted to pass on the ability to make her own decisions in a thoughtful way. So he exposes his daughter to a variety of religious choices, including Christianity, Islam and Buddhism. 

"I … don't indoctrinate her that she should believe in God," the study participant said. "I don't indoctrinate her into not believing in God."

Personally I have seen this same scenario play out a number of times, where a non-religious parent still  either allowed or actively encouraged their child to attend Sunday school, Christian summer camps, or even accompanied them to church for Easter or Christmas celebrations.

Though they themselves are not believers they want their children to be exposed to a religious culture and allowed to make up their own minds, with no hard sell coming from them on the side of atheism.

Now compare that to the constant indoctrination that children are subjected to in many denominations across this country.

I myself had a very similar plan when my little girl was born. Neither her mother nor I were church goers, and we had determined together that we would let her attend whichever church she wanted to attend, or attend no church if that was her choice.

However after the divorce, her mother suddenly became EXTREMELY religious and joined one of the most fundamentalist churches up here, before following them when they uprooted and moved to Georgia.



Suddenly my daughter was being home-schooled with Christian textbooks, attending Christian summer camps, and learning things like evolution was a lie, man walked with the dinosaurs until they were killed in Noah's flood, and that Catholics were not REAL Christians and they were all going to hell.

It was extremely upsetting for me during this time.  But I stayed silent.

I knew my genes were in their someplace and that eventually they would have to kick in and let their presence be known. And eventually they did.

One day, at around age eighteen, my daughter sat me down to explain why I was wrong to trust science instead of believing what was written by God in the Bible. She threw out a number of memorized challenges to "Darwinism" and had whole segments of speeches at her disposal which she had been taught to use against the "unbelievers."

I am well versed in this debate, and always emerge victorious, but this was my baby. I had no desire to pick apart her argument or crush her spirit.

I patiently listened to her spiel.  Toward the end she asked me if I had ever read the Bible.

I answered, "Yes I have, all the way through. Twice. Have you?"

"Well not all of it" she said. "But we memorize portions of it during Bible study."

"Really?  Have you read Charles Darwin's Origin of the Species?"

"No."

"Well then," I said "Perhaps we cannot really have this discussion until both of us have the same information at our disposal."  With that I got up and ended the conversation.

My daughter took that as a challenge (As I knew she would), and went out that day to check "Origin of Species" out at the local library. Then later she checked out and read "The Descent of Man." That was followed by a couple of Richard Dawkins books from my personal library, and the "End of Faith" by Sam Harris.

After that summer she flew back to Georgia and promptly started to argue with EVERYBODY about their blind faith, and lack of knowledge about the subjects they were discussing.

That, plus her alternative lifestyle, got her kicked right out of that church. And temporarily out of her mother's home.

So she flew back here, where she knew she would ALWAYS be loved and respected. And she is still here today.

Essentially I did not have to indoctrinate anybody, I just had to allow them the freedom to learn.

42 comments:

  1. Anonymous4:42 AM

    My son wanted to join Boy Scouts and I brought him a few time until I realized how religious they are. My Daughter went to a Catholic High School her Dad's idea and he was paying. The only thing religious I do for my kids is a Christmas tree because my husband calls me a scrooge but if it was up to me. NONE OF THAT CRAP.
    My good friend did the first communion thing with her kids but never attends church. Just seems hypocritical to me.
    One of the biggest fights I had with my Daughter was when she was sixteen and wanted to go with a pro-life group on a bus to D.C. She needed the money to pay for the trip and I told her there was absolutely no way I was paying for it but if she found a way to come up with the money herself I wouldn't keep her from going. She wasn't interested in the issue it was a social trip to her. She didn't go.
    OT--She's 24 now and just yesterday asked me if I was voting for Mitt Romney and I told her not in a million years would I ever vote for a Republican and I cited the anti-choice stance on that side. She asked who I was going to vote for then, and I said Obama of course. She said, he's running again? Well, I guess I'll vote for him. ARGH!! I just said, yes please vote for Obama.

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  2. I did the same thing with my son. His father's side of the family are all Christians, so he had plenty of exposure. Because of them, I only had to take him a few times when he was little. I didn't take him to temples and such, which would have been pretty cool to do, but I suspect his dad's side of the family would have been scandalized. Because I didn't want to confuse him, I pretty much stayed out of his religious perceptions. That was actually a mistake, I think, because he never knew I'm an atheist. Years later, I made some negative crack about Mormons, and having grown up partly in an evangelical Christian framework, he promptly bashed the Mormons too. That's when he found out I don't believe in God or religion. lol. We had a fight about it. I had to tell him in no uncertain terms that I had allowed him to develop his own beliefs and he could damn well respect mine even if he disagreed with them.

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  3. Loved reading this. So much of interesting, entertaining stuff here.

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  4. angela4:54 AM

    No truer words, Gryphen.

    As a teen when I was searching and questioning my
    faith, I read. The Bible, the Koran, the Book of Mormon and drove a few theology professors mad. I immersed myself in the writings of the believers and non-believers. I talked to Moonies. Witnesses showed up weekly to kindly spar with me. I was a shaky Buddhists,a christian and a pagan all in one semester at school.

    But I was absolutely shocked by the lack of knowledge many christians exhibited about the Bible when they would get in my face about my evolving belief systems. They had no idea about the historical contexts of the Bible and few had even read the entire New Testament let alone the old Testament that many of them based some of their frightening views on.

    Having faith does not mean walking in dark ignorance of even the religion you adhere to.

    Coming from a family of christians who birthed almost an entire generation of atheists (most of my peer group) we feel strongly as you did that the search is personal. So most (not all) of my family encourages their children to seek information and practice what they want to. I have a niece who shops religions like she's at the mall, in one, out the other. But she is serious about the end result. She is looking for a balance of faith, modernity and a nonjudgmental atmosphere of those who are other.
    (I think she'll be a Unitarian in the end).

    And can I say what an amazing father you are for letting your daughter find her own way. Also, I had
    no idea you were separated from your daughter because your ex-wife followed a church. I had no
    idea people actually did this.

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  5. AJ Billings4:59 AM

    Wow, great story about your daughter Gryphen.

    I'm glad she was able to think for herself, and not live and indoctrinated life in the legalistic and stifling prison that churches amount to.

    What's always amazing to me is the level of prejudice shown by some religious folks to any scientific evidence.

    I've known families that are in the so called "Quivering " movement, where young women are not even allowed to have an after school job, can't attend a public school, and must spend their entire unmarried life living as as slaves under the harsh tutelage of their father.

    If any of you think I'm exagerrating, please go to this URL, and read some of the truly heartbreaking stories of young girls and women who have had to endure beatings and cruel punishment under these types of cults

    http://nolongerquivering.com/

    Some are lucky enough to escape, and others have literally given their lives. Still others endure the abuse, the beatings, and being pregnant constantly for 25 years in order to care for their children.

    http://nolongerquivering.com/

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  6. Anonymous4:59 AM

    I don't know Gryphen. I was raised with that notion and I was always confused. My parents wanted to believe they were open and honest about it, but would often check in with me to be sure I was not believing anything I heard. Little kids already have a hard time with reality versus fantasy so it took me a long time to sort it all out. The two things that stuck with me the most was my dad did not allow us to go to confession and he told us to always ask questions.....well, you can just imagine how that went over in Catechism. The funny thing for me was that my old Italian Grandma was always telling me that God was gonna get me if I did not behave---gosh, no wonder my head spins. I was always looking over my shoulder. Fortunately, my dad finally went to college, studied science and evolution, therefore, I was never confirmed, guess I am going to hell, along with my unbaptized kids. Then about 5 years later when my dad got a new job in sales, he announced that we would be going back to church. We asked why (ask those questions) and he said he needed to network----Oh, the hypocrisy. Luckily, he changed jobs and we never talked about God again. I started my own search and raised my kids with spirituality, but a clear distaste for organized religion. I often wonder if they missed out on something---don't think so. Sense of community can be had without walking through the doors of a church. Yes, I have had extensive therapy!!!! Show me a kid raised in a Catholic Italian home who doesn't need it.

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  7. abo gato5:17 AM

    Well, neither my husband nor I are particularly religious. Both of us come from some pretty hard core backgrounds, he grew up in a pentacostal household and I in a southern baptist one. Both of our experiences pretty well soured us for the concept for the rest of our lives.

    When our son was born, we decided to send him to an episcopal grade school. He went from pre-k through 6th grade. When people asked me about it, I told them that I wanted him to know some of the religious works and concepts but that I was done with it myself and did not want to have to take him to church on Sundays so he could gain that knowledge. Mostly those people were shocked that I would tell them that.

    I do think that an intelligent, well read, knowledgable person needs to know about religion. They don't need to believe in it, just know about it. This worked out well for us. Our son will be 21 at the end of January. He is smart, kind, caring of others, and as non religious as we are. I am proud of him.

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  8. Chella5:19 AM

    I was excommunicated from the catholic church in 7th grade, right before my confirmation. My doubt in the church started early, in preschool, when I was kicked out for questioning my teacher about dinosaurs. I liked dinosaurs. I was obsessed with them. I checked out every book I could out of the children's library in my town. And I knew, for certain, dinosaurs came before people. Not with people. Before people.

    Anyway. I was excommunicated for my sexuality. I don't differentiate between the sexes. When I was young, I simply couldn't grasp the idea that boys were supposed to be with girls, and girls with boys. I knew I had little school age crushed on a PERSON. It didn't matter if they were a boy or a girl. In school, this made me the target of horrific bullying, which in turn made me rebel.

    So when during confession, I said that I think I was bisexual, it was a HUGE scandal. My parents were called. I was the subject of a surmen on how the youth of today are holding hands with the devil and turning their backs on god. When I mentioned that god loves all his children, I was told that god doesn't love those who disobey him. Then I was excommunicated at 12.

    Which got me thinking. My parents loved me for exactly who I was. Why should I worship a god who judges people so harshly. That made me realize that the god I was brought up to believe in WASN'T perfect.

    Then I hit high school biology, and any shred of an idea that god was real? Out the window.

    People always ask "what if?" what if god is real? What will you do? Well. If god is real, and I meet him one day, I'm sure he will thank me for living as a good, caring person. For not judging others for their differences. For accepting those less fortunate into my life and heart. And then he will thank me for not blindly following fallible man. For not NEEDING fear to be a good person.

    Because mankind is full of bullshit.

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  9. Anonymous5:22 AM

    Thank you, Gryphen for sharing your personal faith history, as well as your daughter's. Each person sifts through their personal journey and tries to find their way.

    I still don't understand why I have a desire to believe in God. It's been there since I was a kid. Wanting to know there's a creator that cares. Maybe each person's circumstances, depending on their environment in life, cause them to seek God, their creator, knowing that their miserable days have some meaning, or that the evil in the world is condemned by a higher being and
    will be brought to light by true justice. Because I couldn't control things in my life, I had to know there was some greater good out there.

    One thing I've noticed in my personal journey and deciding to remain on blogs where people have alternative views and feelings, is I don't care anymore if one thinks I'm ignorant or dependent and weak. Science is intriguing and has more mysteries than we can explain right now, but it doesn't impress me as much as the fact that our maker planned all this for a purpose.

    The thought that no one was "there there" and the big bang took place all by itself by a chemical reaction......who made the components so they could react? Where did the physical elements come from? For eons and eons they "just" existed out of nothing? Where did it all start? Or was it always there. Will it all end and suddenly no sound, nothing, just darkness, like the sensation one feels when the power goes out.

    There's something in my soul that desires to know there's someone out there that cares about us. The one I chose was the one that called himself Father and his creation "children". Guess it stuck with me all this time.

    Science doesn't dispel God and God doesn't dispel science - but one is under submission to the other. Just my view.

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  10. Randall5:31 AM

    I, too, allowed my children to either go to church or not.

    My daughter is a very religious Xtian, my son is agnostic.

    My daughter is raising my grandkids in the church.

    It will be interesting (if I live long enough) to see if my grandkids grow out of the church.

    I consider it kind of an IQ test - to realize the tooth fairy isn't real. Then the Easter Bunny. Santa. God. Etc.

    As Jesus once said: there comes a time to put away childish things.

    But until that time comes, it's OK to have imaginary friends. Especially to learn values through metaphor.

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  11. Anonymous5:32 AM

    A most revealing post- the raison d'être of your blog.

    It recalled Kipling:
    OH, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God’s great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, tho’ they come from the ends of the earth!

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  12. Well done! Did she take up your challenge to read the bible all the way through? That was what helped turn me around.


    I allowed my son to go to Vacation Bible Study class with one of his friends. When he came home, he was very quiet and subdued. He sat on the couch next to me and laid his head against my shoulder. I asked him what was wrong. He said, "Why does God want to send me to Hell?" Apparently, when he had gone to the class, he was asked if he had been 'saved'. When he said, "No", he had been told that he would go to Hell.

    That was the end of that.

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  13. Thanks, Gryphen. Although I'm technically not an atheist, I am a CINO (Catholic in Name Only) who is married to someone who doesn't question anything, really, about his "faith", and we are raising our children to attend church and, yes, come to their own conclusions as they grow and ask questions. Already I'm letting them know that I think Jesus had brothers and sisters, that he was probably married, that Joseph was his father, and that his mother was proud of him and frustrated with him, that God loves ALL PEOPLE, and that includes people from other planets and galaxies, and that GOD IS LOVE, we all are part of God, and God is in all of us. Jesus was one of the best humans ever, along with Buddha, etc, etc, and we can all strive to become as fully human and divine as anyone else.

    One of them still believes in Santa Claus, and that's alright with me. He's only four, after all.

    The greatest question I've tried to answer is from my seven year old; "WHO MADE GOD?"

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  14. Olivia6:02 AM

    I lost most of my interest in religion as a young woman but I also decided that my kids should at least be exposed to the church of my childhood and they could make their own decision. We went to church regularly when they were young and I was as involved in church activities as much as a disinterested introvert would be. About all I could do is get involved in anything providing direct support of the poor and ill. The fundraising completely turned me off unless I could see it directly benefiting the needy. I was asked to teach classes for young kids but had to decline because I couldn't teach what I didn't believe. Since children tend not to be any more religious than their parents it is no surprise which direction my kids went in that regard. They have a very healthy and humorous skepticism about it all. Obviously, they also adopted my interest in helping the poor and ill.

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  15. Anonymous6:11 AM

    Anonymous@4:42...LOL. My daughter won't let her boys join Boy Scouts because they are homophobic and have too leaders who are child molesters.

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  16. Great post. Great parenting. Great kid. I have one brother and one brother-in-law who converted to Catholicism in order to marry into Catholic families. One was totally for show and I'm not sure about the other, but members of that extended family continually struggle with the artificial inconsistencies. I was raised by a recovered Lutheran and an agnostic with pagan tendencies and my kids are all well informed and open minded free thinkers. So much easier that way.

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  17. Anonymous6:38 AM

    Issues, issues, issues.

    Man, you're like a pit bull.

    Thou doth protest just wee bit too much, Gryphen.

    My ministers's wife was a biologist for Abbot Laboratories. She is now a minister; she is the daughter of a minister, actually.

    She is untroubled in her deep religious faith. Science does not contradict it.

    What is consistent in the post and many of the comments is the level of anger that is palpable. People are angry at the notion that there might be a God. They feel God isn't enough, that God has disappointed them somehow. They feel there cannot be evil if there is a God, apparently. They feel God has excluded them or one of their loved ones. God hasn't done that - people have.

    Just because you can't perceive something doesn't mean it's not there, also.

    The idea that science is separate from the possibility of a God is just humorous. I don't understand the opposition of those concepts.

    There is an intelligence at the center of the universe. Call it what you like, or call it nothing at all.

    It doesn't change its existence.

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  18. Some reading suggestions: anything by Thomas Merton. His best is probably The Seven Storey Mountain, but some of his shorter books may be more accessible to people who have trouble wrapping their minds around the whole Trappist monk/Zen philosophy.

    Also Richard Rohr. My favorite by him at this stage of my life is "Falling Upward." Another goody is "The Naked Now," for an introduction to mysticism. Of course, he's a Catholic priest too, a Franciscan in fact, but don't let that put anybody off.

    Another of my favorites is James Martin. He's a (shudder) Jesuit. "My Life with the Saints" and "Between Heaven and Mirth" are on the lighter side, but still offer plenty of food for thought.

    Lastly, "The Cloud of Unknowing," by an unknown author. "Unknowing" is the key here--pondering, wondering, questioning--not seeing things in black and white, or being judgmental and condemnatory.

    Just trying to offer a little balance to the notion that religious people are naive and narrow-minded, and all the smart people are atheists.

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  19. Anonymous6:54 AM

    O/T, but see Shailey's blog today re the weird police letter that put an end to the Todd prostitution story.

    In reading it, it seem just so obvious that someone put a big giant foot onto the MSM to stop this story, and I don't mean Palin and her lawyer and the Alaska police. I mean a bigger foot than that -- big enough to make the MSM keep it unreported, unresearched, and quiet.

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  20. Anonymous7:01 AM

    Thank You, Gryphen, for sharing your spiritual journey. Although I was excommunicated officially for driving a friend to Planned Parenthood, which a co congregant told a bishop, who brought it up the chain of command. Excommunication doesn't mean you can't attend church and give donations btw, it means you can no longer receive sacrements. My husband wasn't into going to church in the first place, and when they did that to me, he never set foot in a Catholic Church again, except to pay respects at a funeral or for a wedding. To me, it was liberating- to him it was too offensive for words. Who can believe in a vengeful God?



    I often found solace in sitting in a quiet church and meditating on my life. I have attended infrequently sunday services with my children because I and my husband had the same concerns you did with your daughter. We simply wanted them to learn for themselves, and refused to have their bodies mutilated in any way without their informed concent. Circumcision was a big deal back then, to complete the covenant with God, and we thought that should be his decision, not ours.
    My family couldn't deal with it in the beginning. We sinned by taking our infants out without being baptized, etc etc etc. But eventually they turned around, not because we refused to let our kids be exposed to their myopic views, but because they realized we did it out of respect and love for our kids.
    We read the bible, including the Apocrypha, and to this day I have no clue why those books weren't included in the bible, because they bring up quite a few points the bible ignores.
    Long story short, we'd rather have our kids make informed decisions, and we accept any faith they choose. Our son is a full atheist, one daughter is Roman Catholic by name, but chooses not to follow certain rules about birth control and confession when used as a "get out of jail free card to do the sin again" , and another daughter is Lutheran and buddhist. No grandkids yet, but I hope they're raised like we raised our kids.

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  21. How refreshing to read all these comments. And no trolls!

    More evil has been committed in the name of religion than any other entity.

    Religions are started by ruthless people to control other people. Especially their sex lives. And, most especially, their money.

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  22. Anonymous7:30 AM

    My wife was Christian.
    When she wanted to go to church. I went with her and set next to her.
    I don`t believe in God or Religion.
    Religion is just a way to control people and to get $$$$$$$$$$$.

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  23. Anonymous7:54 AM

    "It doesn't change its existence."

    Prove it. That's all I have ever asked and no one can.
    When I was nine I asked the good sisters one question that got me nearly expelled from catholic school...
    "If there was no man, would there be god?"
    Holy shit, you'd have thought I wanted to kill her, the nun reacted so badly. And that was the end of my faith in anything religious. I could read the proofs of other interesting questions but no one ever proved to me god exists in any way, shape or form.

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  24. No more knowledge has ever been uttered than when it was said "The truth shall set you free"....

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  25. hedgewytch8:31 AM

    I was raised in the Lutheran church, by a father who was only there for his business connections, not out of any kind of faith or wanting to be a good person. As a matter of fact, he wore his hypocrisy fairly openly.

    My mother was Jewish who converted to Lutheran when she married, but she is really very loosely spiritual. Because of her own religious conflicts she allowed her children to search and research and question. I refuse to belong to any organized church that teaches fear or intolerance in any shape or form. I have 1 brother who is an aethist, 1 who is agonostic, and a sister who is a buddhist.

    To me God is LOVE. period. In whatever awesome form the Great Spirit manifests itself to us, the search is for knowledge and truth and spiritual growth, no matter what language it may speak.

    And so I am raising my own child in such a way. I will give him all the tools he needs in order to find his own path to enlightenment.

    Now for the fun part. My husband who can best be described as a closeted pagan, has been asked by our very small community to be the Boy Scout Leader. Now, my hubby is an Eagle Scout, but he almost got thrown out of the troops because of his "questioning".

    I am sitting by watching this small dilemma play out - how will my husband, who very much wants to teach the boys all the outdoor skills they need, be able to skirt around the very much religious fundamentalism that is part and parcel of the Boy Scouts? And what is even more cynically amusing for me is that the person who asked hubby to run the troop, is a Christian fundamentalist!

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  26. Anon@6:38: The only anger I've seen here is anger at the box that organized religion has tried to put so many people in. I do see in you some sort of disgust or disappointment in people. People bad, God good. If you don't see God you must not be looking in the right places. Heard it all before. Feel free to pray for us heathens.

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  27. I also see many people here who believe in some sort of God, yet don't have the need to take issue with others' beliefs or lack thereof.

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  28. CJumper in San Jose9:23 AM

    We were sitting at the table out back having cheese and crackers when my stepdaughters mentioned that they'd taken communion at the church their mom was taking them to. I asked them if they knew what that meant. They didn't, so I got to explain the miracle of transubstantiation. The younger daughter said Ewwwe. The older asked me to please pass the host.

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  29. This is precisely what I did with my two kids. I was brought up in a religion so I took them to church also. I have some fond childhood memories of the social aspect, Christmas, etc, so I wanted them to have those memories. But I never proselytized or told them what to think.

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  30. Just a thought-

    There are options ASIDE from organized religion on the one hand and atheism on the other hand.

    ... and of course, organized religion can include great variety-- from loving and inclusive to fundamentalist and judgmental.

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  31. Anonymous9:38 AM

    You're missing the whole point here. The indoctrination of the child will take place in the church the child attends. The indoctrination doesn't take place in the home of the child. Therefore it is our duty as parents to protect our children from lies and fairy tales by keeping them away from the Christian indoctrinating predators. Does anyone want to argue that further?

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  32. Thenorwegianblue10:24 AM

    A plug for critical thinking when it comes to generalities about Boy Scouts, any particular church, or kids' influences in general:
    In our town the Boy Scout troop leaders are great dads, well known to our family, and provide a much-needed example of coping with wilderness situations for suburban kids who have never had to figure out anything practical in their lives.
    What the overall Scout leadership does or says has little to do with what our son is learning with his local troop.
    On the other hand, the AYSO organization, unassailably "good guys" theoretically, was last year in our community a snakepit of over-amped volunteer coaches and really loud offensive parents. We chose to leave. Basketball coach clueless; Little league amazingly inclusive.
    The local Presbyterian youth minister is a smart funny real guy -- his counterpart at the Catholic teen group is a snore.
    Some episodes of Psych are appropriate for
    my 10 yr old, some are not. Et cetera...
    My point is that as a parent you have to have your antennae up all the time to find the good teachers, mentors, coaches, media input for your kid despite all those generalities and stereotypes that are so easy to fall back on.

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  33. Anonymous10:40 AM

    Thanks Gryphen! I was raised in the Assembly of God church. I was taught by fear. Each second coming prediction sent me into an extreme anxious state (thanks to all of those special movie nights at the church being forced to watch the "Left Behind"series). In my early teenage years I was targeted by the adults in the church who felt it was there duty to tell me how evil I was and how I didn't pray hard enough. I was only allowed to attend church functions with one exception, my father (who was not part of the church) would not let me attend prison ministries with the rest of the youth group. This made me furious! It was definitely stunting my spiritual growth!
    My relatives where the leaders of a prison ministry at the state prison (for men). They brought ex-convicts to their home and our community. One ex-con impressed the people of the church so much that he was appointed assistant youth pastor. He supervised weekend trips and over night functions. A young girl went missing in a neighboring town. Her body was found in a shallow grave in a remote area- she had been raped, beaten with a tire iron and ran over repeatedly. Guess who did it? Yep, they found her blood in the assistant youth pastors car. He went to prison, married a lady from the church and I think has fathered at least 2 of her children since.
    I went to college and began studying philosophy and biology. I was amazed to learn that Socrates was alive way before Jesus! My intro to evolution in bio 101 left me wanting more. As I started to let go of my belief in God, I realized I was not evil. My extreme fear of death was replaced with the idea that death is as natural as birth- it's going to happen.
    I have 3 children. Not wanting to scar their psyche's, I study methods of raising them. "Parenting Beyond Belief" is a great book. If they want to attend church- I will take them. Never, never, never will I let them be exposed to a church by themselves. I thank my dad for putting his foot down....I could have been living a life of conjugal visits!

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  34. More evil has been committed in the name of religion than any other entity, writes hrh.

    Not precisely true, although certainly people throughout history have perverted religion to wreak mayhem, i.e., the Inquisition, Crusades, 9/11, etc.

    We can still see this mindset in countries where homosexuality is a capital offense, and in our own nation we have hate masquerading as faith in the Westboro Baptist Church, for example. Then there's the institutionalized child rape of the FLDS church, and countless other examples we've all seen.

    But the root behind most evil is a lust for power of all kinds: religious, political, and territorial. Chairman Mao, Idi Amin, Pol Pot, and Attila the Hun are among the historical figures credited with killing the largest numbers of people. None of them had religious motives.

    And to the poster who commented on religious scientists, yes there are many. Google "father of the Big Bang theory" and you'll find Monsignor Georges Lamaitre, not Edwin Hubbell. Lamaitre, a Belgian priest and physicist, called it by a different term, but it is recognized as the same theory.

    Martin Nowak is a Harvard professor of biology and math and a practicing Roman Catholic who lectures, among other topics, on Christianity and evolution. He could probably persuade Richard Dawkins that the two are not mutually exclusive. Amps and volts are named after Catholic scientists. I think Pasteur was Catholic. I know at some point in his life he was a Secular Franciscan.

    The current crop of GOP candidates, most TV evangelists, and a certain quitter Governor are doing their best to give religion a bad name. But please, let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater. A healthy skepticism is good. Searching for answers is essential, whether you're a Muslim, neopagan, or agnostic. Condemning all people of faith for the narrow-mindedness of a few is counterproductive. Those few project a caricature of faith, not the heart of it.

    Love reading your religious posts and all the comments they provoke, Gryphen. Not as funny as the ones about the endless Palin SNAFUs, but very interesting.

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  35. The older asked me to please pass the host.

    I needed that belly laugh. Thanks!

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  36. Anonymous1:00 PM

    I first started having "atheistic thoughts" at the age of five, so I am very used to attending church and not believing a word that is being spoken.

    I had my kids baptized because I am a good child, and did not want to horrify my parents or inlaws.

    I let my parents take my kids to church most Sundays for many years, and didn't put my foot down until they wanted them to start attending Wednesday night confirmation class. My daughter told me that she didn't want to disappoint Grandma, but it was just too hard with homework having to be done the next morning for school.

    Anyway, I never talked about religion or a god to my kids, until one of them finally asked me if I was a Christian. At that point I told them that I was an atheist, and that their father was agnostic/atheist. Both of them then confessed that they had never believed any of it either.

    I guess that the stories of eternal hell and damnation, etc. don't have nearly as much pull if you don't have an actual parent backing it up.

    I still attend church at Christmas............I love the singing and the tradition.

    And I actually know an atheist who teaches Sunday School. We're everywhere!

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  37. Anonymous1:41 PM

    Wow. The Dalai Lama said that _secular_ values are what is important to the world. I couldn't agree more wholeheartedly.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/02/beyond-religion-dalai-lam_n_1125892.html

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  38. Anonymous3:00 PM

    I was born without a religion. Why should I have to choose one? My children have been given the privilege of researching the subject without pressure from me or my husband. I think it is the best thing I ever did as a parent.

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  39. Marleycat4:11 PM

    One thing I can say about this discussion is - it is exceedingly difficult to express in writing or even orally - why someone does NOT believe in GOD or organized religion w/o sounding like you are bashing folks who DO believe and are members of a Church.

    That said, as a bi-racial woman who grew up in a household where neither parent practiced their faith, Protestant and Zen Buddhist - as a child I often felt even more isolated from the social norm because we never attended church or "belonged" to any community group.

    Throw in the transiency and poverty of military life, as well as complete and total estrangement from the maternal side of my family (by distance and geography)- I did go through phases when the longing to "belong" to some sort of faith would crop up.

    What prevented me as an adult from actually joining any churches or religious organizations was my strong belief in the equality of men and women, equality of ALL people, and in technology/science/evolution.

    I could never find a religious dogma (although Buddhism may deserve further research) that supported both sexes equally. Also, the political use of religion to justify racism, inequality, calls to violence, destroying civil rights, promoting war against other nations based on religion, intolerance, and the denial of science is very alarming, and rather than making the case that I should belong - it's totally turned me off to it as a rational, ethical spiritual option for me.

    It's true these extremist groups are not the in the majority - but, where is the full-throated consistent denouncement of these extremist Christianists from the main stream Churches? Basically - crickets! My perception of that silence is that it's tacit agreement with the extreme views - even though I recognize there may not be - it's what I end up feeling.

    There are plenty of believers who are good people, and religious organizations that do a lot of good in the community, and around the world - but the "good" that's done is true of religious AND secular groups alike - and the secular people/organizations are helping w/o the religious proselytizing attached.

    I am NOT anti-religion or anti-Church - FOR YOU, if you have faith, feel lucky you have that faith - but also know, your faith does not give you special merit, or more credence as a human being!

    Fascinating story, Gryphen, about the damage (religious extremism) done to you and your daughter's interaction in the early years as a family unit - divorce notwithstanding. It's good to see that with time and exposure to a wider world - many children in this situation mature into adults with free-will to choose for themselves and the intellect to understand more fully what makes sense.

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  40. Chella5:20 PM

    Anon 6:38: I don't believe in god, but I'm not angry about it. I was angry and how my church and my fellow church goers treated me as a child, but I don't mind it anymore, it taught me to be more understanding and accepting of others. It was a learning experience. We and everything in the universe are recycled star dust from the big bang. That has heen scientifically proven. You can believe in what you believe, I encourage free open thought in others, but don't judge others for disagreeing with your belief system. To me, god is not at the center of the universe. No matter what you or anyone else calls it.

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  41. Chella6:19 PM

    Marleycat - I absolutely agree!

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  42. BTW, even as a atheist, I don't think that spiritual belief and evolution are mutually exclusive. I have never believed that. I happen to know a brilliant scientist who has written and lectured on evolution, and he said that his primary reason for walking people through the basic process and examples of evolution is to show that Intelligent Design is a load of crap but that evolution absolutely does not preclude God from having created the Big Bang. He nails something there that is at the heart of many of my negative feelings about religion. The idea of a micromanaging God, puttering about in his creation, deciding who lives and who dies, who suffers and who cruises, who can't have kids and who can, who prayed hard enough to have the tornado miss their house and who didn't....This disturbs me deeply. Then toss in Satan to muck up the waters, mix well with lots of God's Will, and you get a pathetic mixture of bullshit. If you want to say that God created the universe, have at it. But if you try to tell me it was God's Will that some gangbanger shot my son to death, well fuck you very much, and your god too.

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