Sunday, November 06, 2011

Serious question of the day.

Right now the Republicans are focusing on this "Personhood Amendment" in Mississippi.

Yet they argue AGAINST spending money for children currently living in poverty.

They argue AGAINST spending money on education.

They almost unanimously support EVERY opportunity to go to war.

And the majority supports the death penalty.

So here is my question, "Why do the Republicans care so little for people NOT surrounded by amniotic fluid?"

Any thoughts?


  1. Anonymous7:49 AM

    They do so because they do not think independently. They follow without question, without thought, without feeling.

    They fear their God. They fear facing Him. They fear they will not measure up so they grab at something, anything they are told will please Him.

    No one is telling them that war is bad. No one is telling them that letting kids starve is bad. No one is telling them that letting people suffer and die without access to health care is bad. All they are told is the unborn must be saved to please Him.

    The morons. They are being led around by the nose by those who want power by controlling their fear.

    Just my opinion based upon experience of watching, listening and interacting with these mindless twits.

  2. Anonymous7:58 AM

    "Why do the Republicans care so little for people NOT surrounded by amniotic fluid?"

    They don't. They're just playing to the fundy crowd.

  3. It's not asked of them so succinctly often enough. You'd think the irony would be obvious, but to them, it's not. Once you're here and you've committed anything that constitutes as a crime in their eyes: being born to illegal immigrants, losing your job, being sick . . . somehow you're a parasite. They want, no DESERVE! everything they and their immediate family and close friends are "entitled" to, but, like sociopaths, have no concern for anyone beyond that.

  4. Sweet anny8:18 AM

    Isn't Mississippi dead last in just about everything that matters? Why does this surprise us?

  5. They need lots of poor, uneducated people to work on their corporate farms and factories.

    Poor people are desperately focused on day-to-day living tasks to scrounge food, clothing and shelter. Poor people can't organize against them. Poor people can't vote against them since felons can't vote, and most felons come from poverty.

    Repubs want to keep 'em poor, dumb and pregnant. And kill 'em if they become violent.

    Repubs then complain about how they're all poor, dumb, violent and pregnant.

    They're creating the Repub's Utopia.

  6. Anonymous8:26 AM

    "Pro-life" applies only to POOR women.

    Financially able Republicans commute to Europe/Canada for safe abortions. They know it is impossible to imprison every fertile American female, so the non-USA abortion is always going to be an option. "Anti-choice" people want the sole choice for POOR American women to be the back-alley abortion. They don't actually give a damn what rich women do.

    Tell your next sanctimonious "I am PRO-life" advocate that they are saying "no American girl or woman can leave the United States because they might get an abortion". After their face turns purple with rage, remind them that they must admit to logic and not mouth platitudes without recognizing consequences.

    Pro-lifers have to either say "I demand American women stay in the US to prevent a possible abortion" or say "I want to force poor women to have babies and let rich women do whatever they want".

    My discussions with pro-life types are always short. The pro-lifer's face is usually purple with rage but, by golly, their idiotic mouths are SHUT.

  7. Anonymous8:27 AM

    That's a great question. I've pondered it for years. What is this obsession to intrude into the most private and personal of decisions, the most life-changing decision humans ever make?

    Yet little regard for its consequences.

    So far, the logic looks to me like:
    --you MUST have any and all babies;
    --you MUST participate in increasing income inequality to benefit the 1%;
    --you MUST agree to kill people in war (your own children and the children of others).

    Who benefits from this?

  8. Whoo, don't get ahead of yourself, Gryphen! A fetus surrounded with amniotic fluid is a veritable greybeard to the GOP! They're all for giving a fertilized egg that hasn't even implanted in the endometrium more rights than the woman or girl who might carry it.

    How did we ever, ever get here?

  9. Olivia8:31 AM

    1 & 2 Uneducated poor children grow up to be stupid adults who are easily persuaded to believe in illogical, idiotic and/or religious ideas.
    3. War provides opportunities to send poor uneducated and/or non white people into harm's way. It provides an excuse for stupid jingoistic faux patriotic bloviations that the righties are so fond of.
    4. The death penalty is another way to rid the world of darker skinned poor and uneducated people because, of course, they are the source of all crime, silly.

    The 'Personhood Amendment' is such a bad idea, even the catholic bishops are against it. And they seldom miss an opportunity to bloviate about little people surrounded by amniotic fluid.

  10. Anonymous8:31 AM

    Because, Gryphen. That right there would be one less drone for their collective if aborted and the mother aborting it goes against said collective every time she makes a decision without their unanimous approval.

  11. Anonymous8:32 AM

    You'll get very few thoughts on this or any other question. Comments on this site only run into the hundreds if you're writing about Palin.

  12. Randall8:39 AM

    But Gryph, that's not entirely true, is it?

    Remember Terri Shiavo?

    As I recall, the conservatives went nuts trying to keep her on feeding tubes.

    Even though she was for all practical purposes, brain-dead.

    So to say that the Republicans care so little for people NOT surrounded by amniotic fluid just isn't accurate...

    They care very little for anyone that can think - that can reason.

    Thus, the real question is:
    why do Republicans (neo-cons) hate and fear educated, thinking, reasoning people?

    And I think the answer is obvious.

  13. Republibaggers say the words "amniotic fluid" the same way Homer Simpson says the word, "donuts." Drool, included.

  14. Anonymous8:48 AM

    Because like Catholics who are anti-birth control, they want to grow more future brainwashed Republicans and keep them poor and uneducated so they can fool them using the Bible and guns as their tools.

  15. In the future I would like to see a Democrat run on a "Pro-life" platform. Except expand it to a "Pro-whole life" platform that focuses on a person from birth, through childhood, to adulthood, until end of life considerations.

    I would imagine this candidate would be FOR sex education and increased access to birth control, AGAINST the death penalty, FOR an increase in the minimum living wage and funding for jobs programs, AGAINST starting unnecessary wars, and FOR increasing access to affordable health care for all Americans.

    Then I would like them to challenge their conservative opponent by asking, "Wait you ONLY want to force women to give birth to every potential human, and then abandon them without additional support after they are born? That is not Pro-life, that is only Pro-fetus! Now I, I am Pro-life!"

  16. Anonymous8:59 AM

    Simple. It's called "Control".

    Control the quality of education and you get easily maipulated people who are only qualified for third world type wages (guess who benefits?) and will listen to "their betters" i.e. the Repukes.

    Control a woman's body and you can then make them dependent upon a man. Goes hand in hand with education, school lunch and pre-school cuts. Also frees up jobs for men if the women have to stay home.

    Too may poor and uneducated in the country? Start wars to "thin the herd". Too much crime because people are desperate or have no future prospects? Death penalty will get rid of them. Wonderful byproduct is that private enterprise i.e. the 1% get filthy rich!

    Do they worship God? No, they worship a fetus. Because if they worshiped God and the Son, they wouldn't be doing the rest of the things they are doing (or attempting).

  17. Anonymous9:06 AM

    you know the most ironic thing? Those fetus pictures like the one you have here, which come from Lennart Wilson's book: A Child Is Born, are actually pictures of... aborted babies.

    Ever wonder why you do not see the womb and the baby is against a black background? Because the pictures are staged.

  18. Anonymous9:09 AM

    The answer is very simple.

    Repugs don't care about fetuses, embryos, zygots, fertilized or unfertilized, implanted or unimplanted eggs at all.

    ALL they care about is controlling women.

  19. I've wondered that for years. Well said.

  20. It's just another way they are trying to control women.. Back to the dark ages. Don't let 'em out of the box. You'll never get them back in again.

  21. Anonymous9:14 AM

    It's all about creating an uneducated population that has no choice but to join the military and be involved in interminable war. Can we say 1984?

    If that's what their god is all about, then I want NO part of it.

  22. Anonymous9:15 AM

    Anon 7:49 -- YES. Dittoheads that have been brainwashed from preachers, Fox media and parents.
    It lasts forever in some cases. My father has Alzheimers and is in the last stages, but can still talk and asked my sister who she was going to vote for. To humour him, she said Republican. He replies, "NOW you're thinking!"


    Gad. Brainwashing is thorough. He's 93 almost and still won't change his opinions one millimeter.

    My sister and I escaped his nonsense years ago, but can't talk to him about it. Sad.

  23. Root cause might indeed be the deep unspoken desire to suppress any and all females.

  24. Anonymous9:19 AM

    Gryphen! 8:48 comment is right on. Time to find that candidate!

  25. @8:28 AM post -- "How did we get here?" Not enough lucid, humanitarian, progressive, liberal people VOTED!!!

    It's not enough to bitch. Campaign for it. You get the idiots in Congress you LET get there.

  26. @ Gryphen, 8:48 AM

    No politician would dare do that. Only statesmen, and there are precious few of them anywhere in the world right now. Perhaps among the OWS crowd...

  27. Anonymous9:31 AM

    i cannot believe that the same fight my mother and grandmother fought is being replayed for my children. disgraceful.

  28. Eunice9:34 AM

    amniotic fluid is godly! Yeah for amniotic!!!!

    There's a documentary on Netflix, god and america, something like that. It's about religion and politics in america, in four parts. According to this film, when Roe v Wade first happened the churches simply didn't care. Not their battle. It wasn't until years later that it crystallized as their defining issue. In my opinion it's partly just opportunism. Having realized it gave them a powerful wedge issue, the politically inclined among them seized on it.

    I will have to admit though, this absurd marriage of libertarian economics and authoritarian social thinking is fun to watch.

  29. Anonymous9:34 AM

    It isn't about the fetus, it's about sex. Women are not supposed to have sex unless it is for the sole purpose of procreation. We sure as heck are not supposed to enjoy it because that is evil and a sin. So say the fundies. So say the men who cannot get pregnant.

  30. "Why do the Republicans care so little for people NOT surrounded by amniotic fluid?"

    Because those people can question them and make them look like a fools.
    Fetus Americans don't talk back and cost them nothing.
    They are somebody elses problem.

  31. icstraights9:41 AM

    Fetus=poor children=poor adults w/o options=military recruitment= GOP's perpetual wars=$$$!

  32. Anonymous9:48 AM

    Strange, isn't it, that the abortion issue only focuses on wombs and fertilized eggs, with nary a mention of who fertilized those eggs.

    I strongly suspect the anti-choice hoo-haw would fade into the woodwork the day a law is passed to castrate rapists. Or how about this: keep abortion legal, but neuter the man responsible for causing the pregnancy.

    Hark! Do I hear the thunder of righteous feet galloping off into the sunset?

  33. Anonymous9:55 AM

    Probably going off on a rant here, but what really upsets me about this, besides the apparent hypocrisy that Gryphen already pointed out, is that most of these people claim to be Christian, and little do they know that they hardly act like one. America is effed up at the moment...most people put their worship of capitalism (profits before people, leaving each man, woman and child to fend for themselves!) before that of God or Jesus Christ (not saying everyone, but if you claim you're Christian and think life is precious, at least be consistent and value ALL life, right?). I ran away from Christianity after 9/11 when the extreme right in this country high jacked it and gave new meaning to what it meant to be Christian in America, this "you're either with us or against us" mentality. But now, after much confusion and soul-searching and having identified myself as an atheist and more recently agnostic, I've started re-identifying with my Catholic roots (yes, Catholicism has it's own modern day dogma issues, so I tend to think in terms of spirituality and a personal relationship with the spirit rather than the current day religion that has been tainted by the motives of men), and now I feel like we should be calling out the fake Christians, the anti-Christs who idolize Wall Street and who embody the seven deadly sins...because I don't like when people define me or my beliefs, and even more, I don't like when people are inconsistent in their own. It's not about the preservation of a human life, if it were they would support measures that would help the people who need it most, you know, the people who the original socialist Jesus Christ would have helped and not asked for anything in return, the helpless, the poor, the sick, the outcasts of society. And they don't want to be bothered with such inconveniences as THOSE kind of people.

  34. It's not about loving the fetus. It's all about controlling women--taking away their sexual, reproductive, and economic freedom. Life is left to God. As for fetuses and babies, He can kill them in the womb and either bless them or let them suffer once they're born.

    I know Catholics take their position from a Papal edict but evangelicals need to know that the Bible is not against abortion.

    Gryphen's idea for Democrats to co-opt 'pro-life' and redefine the term is brilliant. Meanwhile, let's stop using the term for conservatives. They are 'pro-suffering,' 'anti-choice,' 'anti-abortion,' and 'anti--freedom'.

  35. I would love a pro-life candidate like that too Gryphen. Sometimes I wonder why the dems use the language the repubs give them, why do they allow the right to label them? To control the conversation? Sometimes I think they are in it together. They keep control as long as we are all divided.

  36. Anonymous10:22 AM

    Sex and control is a heady brew, and a big part of it is to keep women "in their place". Notice the discussion NEVER turns to who knocked them up in the first place.

    If a DNA sample of the baby was taken, and the bio-dad was required to help support his child for 18 years, suddenly the abortion issue would be dropped like a hot potato.

  37. Anonymous10:24 AM

    The Republican wisdom is infinite. Listen to a Republican tell it like the Republicans think it is.

  38. Anyone interested in the history of contraception...

  39. Anonymous10:28 AM

    "They care very little for anyone that can think - that can reason." Amen to that. And cutting education helps keep the population stupid.

  40. honeybabe10:32 AM

    you know, we women must be close to half the population. we need to vote against these threats to our bodies and i think we have the numbers to do it. repubs are for the rich and dems are for the 99%. how about vote with your percent!!

  41. Anonymous10:32 AM

    Well, every sperm is a potential person, so men who masturbate should also be arrested and jailed by their reasoning.....funny how it never gets back to coming out against Onanism. :)

  42. Anonymous10:44 AM

    The GOP runs on wedge issues: against gays, for guns, less government interference in your life except in something as personal as family planning and pregnancy. I don't think that the GOP leaders actually believe half of what they are spouting; they say it to appeal to their low information, emotional, non-critical thinking base.

    I am willing to bet that the Koch Brothers do not care what- happens to a pregnant woman. They will back the candidate and the party that will limit regulation of banking, trading and environmental issues. They want to be able to pollute, dodge taxes and make more millions, or should I say billions.

    The Republicans are NOT Pro-life. They are pro-embryo and pro-fetus. As Gryphen wrote, they should also care about providing food, health care, education to those beings after they are born. They should be anti-death penalty and anti-war. They are none of these things. The only thing they care about is being able to make more money and the power to control the political issues that might get in their way.

  43. Sharon10:45 AM

    I find it so amazing that the election of this black man, this exceptional human being...has turned over every disgusting, rotten, souless rock in this country. They lied to get into office and the lazy dems let them get away with it all. My hope is the majority of this hate wrapped in jesus dies with that generation, I know my children are living their lives with moral souls.....there is hope.

  44. Anonymous10:54 AM

    I would like to say a few words about the "personhood" of a fertilized egg. I dare any of those Republican experts on the subject of "When life begins" to look at a lineup of fertilized eggs and pick out the human from the fertilized eggs of any other animal).

    I don't think that philosophers and religious leaders can agree upon the moment that a single cell or a cluster of cells becomes human. If their definition is that it is when the soul enters this growing and developing embryo, there is no way that they can prove it scientifically. It is a matter of belief, not science.

    Maybe we become human the moment that we can grasp the concept of a divine being. That would require a thinking brain, so that would eliminate early stages of that embryo. It takes a while for the embryo to establish three distinctive kinds of tissue which will be skin and the lining of the digestive system, muscles and heart, and the nervous system. That happens well after implantation.

    I would like to point out that there are single cell beings swimming around in ponds and oceans right now. They can move, eat, excrete waste, react to stimuli, and reproduce. They are living protozoa, and they are capable of doing more than that single fertilized egg, I mean human being person. There is no scientific basis to call that fertilized egg a person. It is an emotional trick, meant to appeal to the low-information people who believe what Fox and the GOP tell them.

    In case you haven't figured out where the GOP is heading with this trick, it's called "distraction." Eventually, it can become a case for the Supreme Court who will decide that like a corporation, a fertilized egg (before implantation) is a person too. Our Constitution calls for a clear separation of Church and State. The religious nuts are coming in through the back door.

  45. Anonymous10:56 AM

    Another thing, I think I heard that in France, they take care of mothers even after they come home from the hospital, helping with cleaning, great care-taking education, etc for a week or so or more. Anyone living in France, please chime in and correct me, but I'm pretty sure they take great care of new moms. I think there were studies that showed improvement in health in both moms and babies.

    Here, we just force them out of the hospital way before they are ready, and tough luck if you can't function the first few days home. I can't imagine how bad it will be if people are forced to have every single pregnancy and no birth control -- God help us, they better start helping people cope. Women would be back to having 14 kids again and probably dying very young. Schools would go bankrupt. Who could feed 14 kids on one median income? A woman could never work, who could afford day care for 14 kids? The poverty would skyrocket. And they think there are too many people on welfare now, just wait 'til they get in the WH. Idiots! They never think things through.

  46. Sweet anny10:59 AM

    To anon@9:55:

    Well said, well written and welcome.

    You are in the right place here; sometimes we rant abit.

    Do you post often? May I suggest "ranter" as a tag? Would look forward to your posts.

    I am smiling here.

  47. It seems Gryph, that consistently over the years, this has been, and currently is primarily a control issue. Every rethuglicon I've ever seen in action believes that if they give up controlling the female of the species ( as alledgedly command in their version of the bible ) they become lesser people and are looked at as failures. This mindless obedience to fairytale indoctrination is not rational.

    Now, this does NOT explain the female rethuglicon OR the folks like Bachmann, Brewer from Arizonie, folks like that evangelical loon out of the Carolina's , Cindy Jacobs, or even the sister from your neck of the woods.... Women, openly giving control of their bodies and absolute power of final decisions on their lives in some cases is COMPLETLY insane. I'm not sure how you get from being a rational, sentient human to allowing someone else COMPLETE and FINAL decisions about you. I don't get it, and don't want to.

    But it seems, the weak always get suckered into delusion early in life and that's a monumental crime in my book. So, the more control these folks try to take, the harder the rest of must persist....

  48. Anonymous11:02 AM

    Where did we ever buy in to the terms "pro-choice" and "pro-life"?

    We are ALL pro-life, one way or another. No one will admit to being anti-life!

    I'm using the terms "pro-choice" and "anti-choice." Choice for the potential mother, who is the one who usually bears most of the consequences for the next 30 yrs. Privacy in that choice.

    Repubs are hot and heavy into the twin agendas of "anti-choice" and depopulation (reducing health care, social security, minimum wage), aiming to get rid of the folks who cost the government money while increasing the number of people desperate for a job.

    Again, who benefits from this?

  49. Anonymous11:21 AM

    I have wondered that for years.....I used to get calls from the prolife groups to vote for their "prolife candidate" and I always ask if they are in favor of the death penalty and they ALWAYS respond with "yes" so I tell them that I can't possibly vote for their candidate because I am prolife. They start quickly to explain that they are too. I respond with, "No, I am pro life from natural birth until natural death. You are only pro life for bringing them into the world and if they don't turn out so good, then kill them later. I call that retroactive abortion. I am for life from beginning of birth till the end through natural death." Although, I now accept that some may want to end their lives due to severe nonending disease that will be more tortuous as it progresses. I have accepted that it is their choice. But for the prolifers, I had one young man who sat on the other end for a minute or two and said , "you know, I think you are right. I am going to have to give this great consideration" and I thanked him for being able to see the difference in being pro life as opposed to only those in the womb.
    Otherwise, I have to confess that being from Texas, and living awhile in Louisiana, the attitudes toward race, nursing one's infant, to God, and a multitude of other things overwhelmed me and it felt awful. I eventually moved to alaska. ALthough I experienced some of the same things there, it was not as prevalent as the south,except we had a lot of people from the south who were the strongest republicans in the valley. I just find a huge disconnect between the republicans and real life, even a faith in God. There is just a disconnect between their fantasy and reality and they are all okay even while they invoke the name of god while cursing you and telling you what a horrible person you are for liking obama and and using the "n" word....amazing to me.

  50. Anonymous11:33 AM

    As others have pointed out, if a woman has enough resources (money, access), she has a choice, has always had a choice -- a safe, expensive (even if illegal) choice. Sarah Palin pointed this out to us when she discussed making her own hypothetical choice (hypothetical because she was in fact not pregnant with Trig). She felt she had a choice (she said), a choice she and other fundies would deny to others.

    This choice for the wealthy is as true for fundie Repub women as it is for liberal Dem women. The difference is that the liberal Dems want that choice over one's own body to be available to those who are not wealthy enough to disobey a ridiculous law.

  51. It just makes sense-It just makes sense-It just makes sense11:33 AM

    It's a person, a baby person! It love's it's Mommy, and that's not all!


    I used to get so excited and sing to my ultrasounds at this stage! This all being said, while I was planning for them to be doctors and find cures for cancer, I was talking to school board members about educational opportunities in 6-18 years. They thought I was goofy, a bit dopey on pregnant hormones, but hey, I was doing what I could! At that time, I don't think the conservatives had a clue as to how bad things would get. Who would have guessed?


    Be aware that politicians are like the news outlets. They are saying one thing, but their goal is not about ethics or beliefs, but about either generating ad dollars and votes, or clicks and ad dollars.

    If the conservatives adapt the stance of the progressives, they won't say it is because we were right but because "it just makes sense!"

  52. Anonymous11:35 AM

    because they believe sex is a sin and pregnancy is punishment for a woman having sex. and they know they can force this belief on the stupid religious believers. end of story.

    forced pregnancy & childbirth = the ultimate in slavery!

  53. I don't think they care all that much about the unborn; I think it's a wedge issue more than anything else.

    However, white men *do* want white women to have lots of babies and counter the births of non-whites. I've had more than one guy get in my face for just giving birth once.

  54. Anonymous11:41 AM

    Gryphen, you really need to start reading Amanda Marcotte at

    It has never been about babeez, or protecting children. It is about controlling women. Yes, I knwo there are women Republicsns, but that doesn't change that those women want to control other women. Just like with those who vote against their own self interests when they support corporations and the rich getting tax breaks, it is because they aspire to be the overseers and or the privileged position of house slave. If the privilege of the wealthy is taken away, then they can't exploit their own willingness to get privilege by favoritism. What they really fear is a true meritocracy.

  55. ranter11:46 AM

    Well thank you, Sweet anny! I have posted here before mostly under anonymous, but have had my fair share of ranting! I think I'll take your advice and shall be henceforth referred to as "ranter"! Suits me well, more than you know! And thank you Gryphen for allowing all of us an outlet to vent our frustrations, not only about our favorite gal Sarah Palin, but also about these very important issues.

    @Sharon 10:45
    My hope lies within my children's generation, that I've taught them well enough to win, or at least be on the side of truth and justice, in this culture war. Hope is all we have sometimes.

  56. O/T somebody caught a pic of Sarah Palin and Trig at an ATM in DisneyWorld right after her speech:

  57. Sally in MI11:46 AM

    My answer: when they try to ban contraception (and I'm sure their big pharma donors will LOVE that loss of revenue) they must also eliminate all access to Viagra. No more. If women must suffer the consequences of sex, let's make sure fewer old white rich men are able to impregnate them.
    Think how many DC aides will now be safe!

  58. Anonymous11:47 AM

    I love the DNA-test suggestion: I'd forgotten how far this science has come. Only let's get away from optional support (if the bioDad feels like it). How about mandatory support? But not like now, where women have to go to court to get it: turn it around, so men have to go to court to get out of it.

    That would sure create a new culture of carefulness on the part of men. Hahaha -- I'd love to watch the machinations to keep such an outrageous thing (in-practice co-responsibility!) from happening by law.

  59. Gryphen, I like your idea for a candidate.

  60. Anonymous11:49 AM

    When one considers all the various arguments on this subject, the main thing that emerges is how deeply-held and complicated the arguments can get. To me, THAT's the biggest reason for a woman to make this choice herself.

  61. Anonymous11:50 AM

    Erm.... I'm not sure about the war thing anymore. Wars aren't about our troops versus your troops - it's about technology. You don't put an F18 or even a drone in the hands of someone without a high school education. So.... is it to fill the privatized prisons run by their corporate cronies-likely.

    Yo should have heard Tavis Smiley this a..

  62. Anonymous11:57 AM

    In the back door - nope boldy in the window right now. In my state, they tried to defund Planned Parenthood - because we shouldn't be forced to use our tax dollars to support that which we don't believe in an d is against our religion - said the anti-choicers. But then they started schools vouchers, and when I objects that my tax dollars were being used to support religious schools- the response was - so what?

    The stupid hypocrisy - it burns.

  63. Anonymous12:03 PM

    Some of the people I know who believe as you portray are just narrow, rigid people.

    A lot of people I know who believe this way are just hard-working, kind, people trying their best to figure out the world and wanting some absolutes to hold on to. Painting them as hypocrites of the worst kind may be satisfying, but is unlikely to help you make the kind of progress on the issues you would like.

    It's probably more helpful to try to understand how they really can hold beliefs you think are contradictory, than to mock and deride them for such.

    And if I were someone who held those beliefs (I don't), I wouldn't come here to find someone with whom I could relate. And thus the two sides don't talk and each strengthens their disdain for the other


  64. Anonymous12:08 PM

    Gryphen as a mom, a grandma, and a former medical placement foster mom all I can say is the only reason the GOP cares about abortion at all is to make women second class citizens. If they truly were "pro-life", they would support any child in anyway possible. And there would not be over 400,000 children languishing in fster care that are ready to be adopted as I type.
    The rights "rill" target is the afforable, accessable access to borth control.

  65. Anonymous12:27 PM

    @10:56 You asked about France and parental leave. This wikipedia article has a table listing countries, how much of parental leave is paid for and for how long. Some places consider it just as important for the father to be home with the baby as the mother.

  66. Anonymous12:30 PM

    I don't think it has EVER been about children. It is all about controlling women. Ever notice how many men are prominent in the so-called "Pro Life" movement? How many men in Congress push each other out of the way to get to the microphone to extoll their pro-life credentials?

    Do you see men leading efforts to improve childcare for working families? Do they march for better schools? Do they lead marches against rape? Do they petition and demand prenatal care for all pregnant women? Who was at the forefront of the anti-child labor movement early in the 20th century? Who wants to overturn child labor laws now?

    No, it was never about the children.

  67. Anonymous12:54 PM

    Don't try to understand it because there is no logic there. Right Wingers are afflicted with a unique mental illness that allows them to compartmentalize every issue and form opinions about each in a vacuum completely removed from any relation to the others. Each issue is also removed from any context or history so it can be judged simply as a "principal".

    This is why right wingers cannot solve problems. Problem solving requires applying ideas to reality. They only grasp concepts and magical thinking.

    This is how they are able to claim raising taxes on the 1% will hurt the economy despite historical evidence proving them wrong. This is how they can fight for the status quo that destroyed the economy in the first place and how they can justify crippling America in the name of their war on Obama.

    What is "cognitive dissonance" to us does not exist for them because to their minds, EVERYTHING is apples and oranges. "Pro-life" has NO RELATION to capital punishment, education or health. Being Pro-America is unrelated to whether or not you're inflicting damage on the lives of its citizens or its economy. it's simply about worshiping a concept expressed as a flag, not actually trying to live the life that concept represents.

    It also has no relation to any "religious beliefs" they purport to hold. This is how they are able to claim Jesus as their own while simultaneously believing in Ayn Randian economic Darwinism. It's how they can oppress gays during the day and then "party" with gay prostitutes at night.

    It's how they can proclaim Medicaid as "socialisism" that needs to be wiped out while accepting farm subsidies.

    At an earlier point in history, this mental defect was actually a survival trait. It allowed people to simplify input and make judgements quickly. But their time is past. Life has become too complex for their simple-minded judgementalism and now they merely wreak havoc on the system.

    We're at the point where we have to choose what kind of leaders we need: Elizabeth Warrens or Rick Perrys?

    But some right wingers are merely parasitic sociopaths that are simply playing the suckers for their money by pushing their buttons and blowing the right dog whistles.

    It's hard to tell them apart. :P

  68. Anonymous1:25 PM

    I had a wet dream last night.

    My question is: can my bedsheet now qualify to vote?

  69. Anonymous1:38 PM

    I actually once heard a passionately anti-abortion preacher say that the (doomed) cotton mills would "sure have a better chance of surviving if all these unborn babies could grow up to become customers for the cloth they made." (My paraphrase)

  70. Anonymous1:52 PM

    "Women, openly giving control of their bodies and absolute power of final decisions on their lives in some cases is COMPLETLY insane."

    Yes it is insane, but when you are around folks like some of my fundie or mormon neighbors you can easily see why they do it. It is so much easier to just let someone else (elder, father, husband, bishop) do all your thinking for you. No need to struggle to understand complex issues, no need to worry about anything (god will provide), and all you have to do is make one man happy all the time.
    No wonder Utah has the highest rate of anti-depressant usage per capita in the USA. My ob/gyn told me that ages ago.

  71. Anonymous2:02 PM

    They are waiting for the second birth of Jesus. Once the child is born and there is no heck with the child, they don't care.

  72. Anonymous2:08 PM

    They fear women's sexuality and women's autonomy.

  73. They're not pro-life. They're just pro-birth. I've always said that.

  74. Anonymous2:17 PM

    @ Lucy

    If you can't see the meanness and fear (which makes for some pretty scary a-holes - think fear-biting dog) then you really need to open your eyes.

    When Candidate Obama said they were bitter and cling to their guns and religion he was being kind and accurate. And I've wasted far too much time trying to talk to them. They aren't listening - and any discussion devolves into a religious defense - well it's what I belive and that's it.

    Ranter was right - it really is too late to ever get those older to change - it's all about educating - in the true sense of that word - the kids - and the TeaTHGS know it, which is why they fight real education reforms.

  75. Anonymous3:22 PM

    Historically men have used religion and physical power to control and abuse women and children.

    All this is is just a larger than usual expression of that dysfunction.

    Most witches were female, they were easy targets for abuse, look at the incredible number of mass racially motivated rapes going on in Africa now, and historically.

    There are lots of little egos and lots of abusers (women also too) around who will use any tool to justify their abuse.

    That is why concern for the fetus, child, mother,(occupied country, think Iraq) ceases to be of any concern once it is no longer useful to fulfill the controller, abuser's need.

  76. Anonymous3:37 PM

    Great comments everybody!

    Thanks Dinty for the hilarious pic of Sarah at the ATM.

    Also thank you Anon for the info on maternity leave in other countries. It really shows how backwards we are in comparison. It's a disgrace.

    I have a fundie mother and 2 Irish Catholic aunts that I tried to have this conversation with this summer. My aunts live in Florida and the conversation started with one aunt saying that she thought is was a great idea to have the law that requires a woman to have a sonogram wand procedure before getting a abortion. I was horrified to say the least. I was upset and a little crude but said NO fucking Republican men are going to tell me what will be going into my vagina or any other decision about my body. And that, until women can start to making laws about men and their dicks they can shove that wand up their ass. I think it is high time to fight back with laws on them!
    Sorry for the language but this issue has always pissed me off.

    Gryphen I also love your campaign platform idea. Gryphen for President!


  77. Anonymous3:46 PM

    @12:30 - ever notice the number of women PAST child-bearing years too. Particularly those who would have been sexually active before Roe v. Wade? Ever wonder if they're jealous because their sex lives were so warped by fears of pregnancy as to never fully mature and develop that they are jealous and think women enjoying sex should be punished the same way they (by being born too early) were?

    I have a sneaking suspicion that the same attitudes existed for women controlled reliable birth control - but intellect was valued at the time so the reasonable voices shut them down. It's loss of respect for reason and intellect and the glorification of illogical but common (prejudice) sense that is a contributing factor.

  78. Anonymous4:17 PM

    "I had a wet dream last night.

    My question is: can my bedsheet now qualify to vote?"

    No. But if you wash it, you're a murderer! ;))

  79. Smirnonn4:18 PM

    "Why do the Republicans care so little for people NOT surrounded by amniotic fluid?"

    'Cause it's easy to pander to the fundie bagtards by playing the anti-abortion card.

    The hypocrisy is astounding. True story:

    A friend of mine married a girl who's parents were hyper religious activists in the "right to life" movement. They actively protested abortion regularly. But it seems that social appearances take precedence as they forced their daughter to have an abortion when she was in high school because of an "oops" pregnancy. I still remember her describing how confused and embarrassed she was when her milk came in while she was in gym class and soaked the front of her shirt.

    Guess it's the old "do as I say, not as I do" adage.

  80. Anonymous5:09 PM

    If this gets to the courts, and it will. I hope the counter is the repeal of slavery.

    Once implanted the placenta becomes the ruling endocrine gland of the woman's body. She is literally enslaved to it, even though it's orders might kill her.

    Remember the placenta is the fetus' tissue, not the mother's. It is produced with the differentiating cells from the blastosphere, just like the fetus is. She becomes the slave to the rule of the fetus' needs.

    So how can she, under the laws of this country, be forced against her will to be enslaved to another "human." The emancipation proclamation prohibits that.

    If they are both equally free humans under the Constitution then the rights of the fetus cannot be greater than the rights of the mother.

    That is the Salomon-like brilliance of Roe v.Wade. The court avoided the "human" issue and applied logic and fairness and just plain practicality.

    The court struck a balance, recognizing the superior rights of the woman for the first three months, recognizing some rights for the fetus the next three, and granting, in most instances but not all, superior rights to the fetus in the last trimester.

    As Sarah would say it is the common sense approach.

  81. Anonymous5:15 PM

    @2:17: If you can't see the meanness and fear (which makes for some pretty scary a-holes - think fear-biting dog) then you really need to open your eyes.

    I can see that their actions result in hardship and pain for others. I can see that SOME of them are mean-spiritied.

    I can easily see the fear. Fear often leads us astray.

    I suggest that if you think all anti-abortion people are evil, mean-spirited, monolithic people, then perhaps it is you that is having trouble seeing.

    I suggest that seeing their fear makes them little different from a whole lot of people on this planet.

  82. lwtjb5:38 PM

    @12:30 - ever notice the number of women PAST child-bearing years too. Particularly those who would have been sexually active before Roe v. Wade?

    3:46 PM

    We were having abortions before Roe v. Wade. Sex too.

  83. Psychopaths reproduce not by having small numbers of children and taking good care of them, instead they have lots and neglect them. This is documented with research. A lot of the Republican and religious right leaders are psychopaths who are leading people who follow authoritarian leaders, they do what they tell them unquestioningly and without a firing neuron, the followers believe the false information even when they contradict themselves. The Quiverfull Movement is an product of a warped psychopathic mind. When the leader of anything is a psychopath they influence wide ranges of people. Because the people of this country did not know what was going on they have gotten into power and are now attempting to legislate their crazy beliefs. The Bible can be used to support any way of looking at an issue if the right passages are selected and psychopaths are masters at manipulating people psychologically. Whenever a psychopath leads in politics, religion or in a corporation the whole system ends up functioning psychopathically and the people begin thinking that way. This is why teaching children to think independently is so important. It is also important that as a whole citizens of this country begin to recognize obvious psychopathic leaders and stop voting for them or working for them.

  84. Anonymous7:02 PM

    They also could care less about any innocent souls who are already living--and tortured and murdered--everyday--dogs and cats and other animals...pharma animal testing, kitties and doggies in kill shelters, hunting, factory farming and torutred cows, chickens, turkeys and other "food" embryo feels nothing, but these living beings feel real pain and cry and have no voice or no defense. Humans are despicable, esp. many of them who pretend to be "christian"

  85. Anonymous7:19 PM

    @ 5:38 - yeas, but you were riskign your life to have those abortions - and having to consider yourself a criminal too. And yes, you were having sex, but were doing so with the specter of pregnancy/motherhood a wonderful killjoy wet-blanket on the bed.

  86. Anonymous7:27 PM

    @5:15 - I have yet to meet - and in my line of work I have opportunity to meet and discuss the topic in depth with many- a truly committed anti-choicer who doesn't end up at well - she made a choice and she should suffer the consequences. Kids are punishment - makes me wonder what kind of life their kids are having, right?

    If you - or they, can't see that your fears should stop at the limits of another persons body - you have the problem.

    And another little tidbit for you to chew on:

    John Locke established a human's right to control their own body and it's labor (right to privacy) as the foundation for private property rights. Destroy that foundation, and you pretty much undermine capitalism, which is based on property rights. Oopsies!

  87. Anonymous7:49 PM

    I would like to know where they are when it comes to advocating for our Fetal Alcohol Syndrome and other unfortunate children who are in our OCS system. The children that nobody wants. As a Tribal Social Worker I cannot begin to describe the fight for services, homes and funding that these children require.

  88. Anonymous8:02 PM

    Anonymous 832 a.m.

    You'll get very few thoughts on this or any other question. Comments on this site only run into the hundreds if you're writing about Palin.

    Nice try, Sarah's Paid Troll

    Gryphen isn't talking about Sarah much these days, and his blog's doing just fine. Of course, if your mistress and boss would like to do a guest post to "clear the air", or "set the record straight" about the wild ride, and the birth of Trig, I'm sure Gryphen will accomodate her with a list of questions to be answered truthfully.

    Get back to us with her thoughts, I'm sure she'll be pleased with the attention lavished upon her and the number of comments.

  89. Anonymous8:43 PM

    I love your comment in the thread, Grypen. Pro Life should include from birth through death, because end of life issues are rarely brought up by the Republicans, unless it's Terri Schiavo, who was murdered so her husband can marry his new conquest.

    I don't think it's anyone's concern except for the woman because, ultimately, it's the woman who's saddled with the lion's share of grunt work in raising chidren.

    The Republicans don't care much for the fetus, but it's a hot button issue for the fundies, and they are the owns who have their fists up the Republican radical right sock puppets.

    Romney was speaking at a fundie event today, he's cutting 500 billion in spending and is now soundly against Obama Care, and an avowed pro life candidate, aligning himself with Prosperity for America.

    Does he not know of a thing called "You Tube", that's chock full of his past remarks about women's reproductive rights and boasing he was not pro choice?

  90. Enjay in E MT8:52 PM

    I don't know where everyone lives, or what your life circumstances are but many have expressed thoughtful comments concerning a hot-button issue.

    Whatever belief of when life becomes a person; first breath, conception, fertilization, flutter, etc. we cannot allow a government entity to dictate, by law, reproductive rights on its citizens.

    If a church or religion has imposed such edict - a person has the freedom (the right, the choice) to refuse to accept that religion.

  91. Anonymous11:37 PM

    Another opinion, Gryphen.

    Years ago, I obtained a copy of the sex education program from two school districts. One of the programs stressed abstinence, but the other one did not. Instead, for lack of a better descriptive, it stressed that humans are animals, intercourse is a natural bodily function, a 'natural act.'

    Those words took me back in time. The time when a friend told me she was in a crowded elevator within the district's courthouse as she over heard a mother, of one young man within a group who were charged with kidnap and gang rape. The mother stated that she didn't understand why her son was not released on bail, because it was just a "natural act." That group of men held two female victims for many hours, a mother and a daughter, and repeatedly raped them. The twelve year old girl was raped almost as many times as the woman. The girl was mutilated, I won't even put into words. After release from the hospital, the girl was immediately transferred to a psychiatric facility because she was completely unresponsive to this world. She had been in an unreachable place since being rescued. She was the only child of her parents.

    Maybe God answered the cries of women by giving humankind the knowledge to find medical breakthroughs to wipe away some of the tears.

    For eons, the largest group of oppressed people in all the world has been women, including even oppression of women by women.

    Sex sells, and women are projected sexually to entice lust for sex. What do children see to model? Sex slave and sex trade no doubt have been predominately controlled by men, for profit and sexual gratification. Barely scratching the surface, what about more babies for cash or to increase tithe; more soldiers to die or population manipulation of a race. Even a girl seeking unconditional love or feeling obligated to service a boy in order to keep him happy. I thought I'd just throw all those in. The issue is multifaceted.

    Abortion is an end result. Lowering abortion numbers should be the goal. By empowering kids to respect their body, to respect their space and to respect the body and space of all others with awareness of inappropriate touch or behavior. Teaching kids complete age appropriate sex education and providing them with all the knowledge and tools for contraception to deter parenthood until maturity. Not having that information or tools will not deter kids from having sex when they see it all around them.

    Still today, within this patriarchal system, there are many who believe men should oppress women, even owned like property or chattel. Keep them in their place, to use just for sexual gratification and a vessel to carry a seed to term. And I'm not talking about some third world country, either.

    Technology now exists that allow a woman to fully control the seed that fertilizes her egg. This medical procedure should be no different than sucking the fat out of the ass or taking a pill to get an erection. However, it is unfortunate that the major difference is that the wombs of women are publicly dominated.

    Our wombs are not public property; therefore, they should not be public debate.

  92. Anonymous2:18 AM

    Three words:

    Control over women.

  93. Anonymous2:35 AM

    Read this in the book "Freakanomics" years ago. Crimes committed by teenagers and young people went down significantly 15 or so years after Roe v. Wade. Why? Because these unwanted, neglected children were never born.

  94. Anonymous6:03 AM

    7:27 If you - or they, can't see that your fears should stop at the limits of another persons body - you have the problem.

    I think saying that "their fears should stop at the limits of another's body" is a good sound bite, but I don't support it - I support the doctrine of self-defense. WHich isn't to say I think abortion is wrong. I think there should be choice. It's just to say that "their fear should stop at the limits of another's body" it's a better sound bite than it is logic.

    I do agree with you that for many of these people, their motivation is punishment - actually I think it is more likely negative consequences to deter sexual promiscuity, which is their fear, but punishment is the only thing that looks to them like it would be effective.

    I'm surprised that you have met such a monolithic group of anti-choice people. I find many of them to be very decent people, struggling to find what's right. I don't agree with them, but I don't find them universally evil. And some of them walk the walk.

    I'm having a hard time connecting the dots between pregnancy/abortion and capitalism, but I'm willing to listen some more.

  95. Anonymous3:44 PM

    "you know, we women must be close to half the population. we need to vote against these threats to our bodies and i think we have the numbers to do it. repubs are for the rich and dems are for the 99%. how about vote with your percent!!"
    10:32 AM
    Excellent point, but there are large numbers of women who fall in line with the R's and can not look outside their own lives to allow other women choices of their own bodies and destinies. Ex. Sarah Palin saying she would counsel a rape or incert victim to keep the baby.


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