Morality is not determined by the church you attend nor the faith you embrace. It is determined by the quality of your character and the positive impact you have on those you meet along your journey
Sunday, March 04, 2012
This makes a pretty good point. Any Christians want to explain to me how this is wrong?
Theologians have been wrestling with the problem of evil for two millennia.
There are some who think that if there is a Hell, that those who are there want to be there. (That's the idea behind Dante and the theology The Divine Comedy uses.) And there are others who think that there isn't anyone in Hell at all.
One of the most creative solutions to the problem comes from a Philip K. Dick novel, A Maze of Death. The Christian god isn't a three-headed monster, it's actually a four-headed monster. The Trinity has three aspects -- creator (God), human (Jesus), and spirit (Holy Spirit). Dick's insight was that God needed to have four aspects -- creator (God), destroyer (Satan), human (Jesus), and spirit (Holy Spirit).
What is the difference between "God" and "Spirit" cause to my Taoists way of thinking, if God is not Spirit ( and vice versa) then what and who are God and/or spirit?
AND how do you conceive "God"? I mean what kind of an entity is he/she?
People talk about their beliefe in God all the time but they never define what God is or even what THEY mean by word God.
I have NO idea, and I am not being sarcastic here, just truthful, WHAT THE WORD GOD means to most people, whatever their faith, and now I am confused by what is meant by "God" and "spirit" being different.
P.S. I capilize the word "God" out of respect for others' belief, not because I believe in "God" as others may or may not define it.
Exactly! This is always my rough general response when I'm talked down to by a 'Christian'. They don't have an answer and generally get angry. They connect that anger with you (and hence atheists in general) instead of really addressing what about it makes them angry. The truth is is that the constant illogic of the bible is known to them on some level, sometimes deep down where it is never addressed or dug up and examined. Some Christians are fully conscious of it and hence use the bible as a flawed book of metaphor, rather than actually think it is literal and unflawed.
It is a fact that the book is highly flawed. If it was a literal work from someone who loves us wouldn't it include a little side note about sanitation and washing hands before childbirth for just one example? And save womankind thousands of years of playing Russian roulette with their lives simply having a family? We know it is flawed also because for just one example of thousands it describes rabbits as cud chewing animals. An easy mistake for a desert sheep herder 3000 years ago to make; why it's almost like god didn't help at all!
I'm not even a Real True Christian (nor do I play one on TV) but even so, it's really easy to find the fatal flaw. Item 3 does not even reference the Bible much less the blessed King James Version. Therefore the exercise is flawed.
Gryphen, I'm really and truly OVER your attacks on Christians. Many of your readers are "big C Christians" rather than "little c christians" aka Sarah Palin christians.
It's gotten to the point where you seem to ridicule people of faith more than any other one thing.
I love IM ; there is literally NO other place in the world where I feel like I can be totally open about the anger and frustration I feel concerning Palin and her rabidly delusional followers. But I will have no choice but to leave if something very important to me keeps being ruthlessly attacked again and again.
I doubt you could HAVE a bigger cheerleader than me- I encouraged everyone to donate to you when Joe's book came out and I have sent dozens of people here to discover the REAL Sarah Palin.
Why can't you let those of us who believe and do our best to simply "love one another" as Jesus said do above all else, those of us who simply want to live our lives helping the "alien, fatherless, and widowed"...just LIVE our lives without feeling constantly under attack?
What you need to attack are the people who twist and mangle "religion" to suit their own nefarious and narcissistic agendas. REAL Christians love gay people as much as we love anyone else, we would never force our faith upon anyone, and we simply want to be accepted like anyone else. We pursue a relationship with Jesus, not "religion" with some unknown sky deity.
And for most of us- it is a very important aspect of our lives. For you to continue to deride our closely held faith as "fairy tales" or call the conception of Jesus "rape" shows an alarming disrespect for us. As someone who seems to preach tolerance toward people different than oneself, I really do not understand why you have been so cavalierly offensive concerning Christians.
Thank you Nyah! Now I will scroll down to see if there is a new post that will expose the Palin madness.I am very happy being a Big C. It's the small c's and no c's that seem to be so unhappy with life.
Our president and family are a perfect example of faith and caring. The Palin's aren't.The Obama's are caring and loving, the Palin's aren't.
God didn't open the door for the Obama's, they gave them strength and knowledge to make good choices. The Palin's weren't "called" to lead, they have lied and cheated to get everything they have. I don't see much happiness in their family, but jealousy and deceit in everything they do. Would you buy a used car from them? I trust our president to make the right decisions for our country, I don't trust anything the Palin's do.
President Obama doesn't wear his faith on his lapel,or with bling. His smile says it all. I don't expect his girls will be in reality shows or dancing with the stars when his term is up, nor the girls giving abstinence lectures to make lots of money and being single mother's. I see them finishing high school with honors and going on to college and excelling in their life. They will talk, dress and act appropriately as they have been taught well all their lives. They are nice people. They don't radiate hate with their talk and actions.
Now, that's big C! I see a big K (Kaos) with all things Palin.
I sleep good at night knowing a man of faith and knowledge is at our helm.
Nyah and Anon, perfectly great comments! I avoid religion...religiously... :) ...but I don't have any problem with my spiritual beliefs. In fact, a foundation in Christianity is what has helped develop them over my lifetime. I think the attacks are uncalled for or at least need to be channeled more productively toward those who deserve them. I have many wonderful Christian friends, but I avoid the judgmental, narrow minded ones at all costs. They are creepy and scary. That said, I think the above chart re "Satan" is right on.
Nyah, Anon, and Lynne: I appreciate your positions and I rejoice in the fact that some "big C" Christians still exist. However, (you knew there was an "however" coming, right?)I think you take these posts much too personally. If your faith is strongly rooted, then these expressions of doubt, or, sometimes, ridicule,should be able to roll off your back. You have a choice to either refute them with the logic that informs your faith, or ignore them. Accusing Gryph of attacking your religion is unfair. Gryph has made no secret of his spiritual stance and has even said that he originally wanted to do a blog solely on atheism until the public discourse was hijacked by the Quitler. Anyway, it's still Gryph's blog and his decision what to post. We'd hate to lose your input over a perceived slight. It's NOT personal. IMHO ~physicsmom
Satan was a construct that developed when monotheism (Old Testament god as well as the New Testament god) came into fashion to explain all the negative things in life. In the old, polytheistic days, they simply had evil gods as well as benevolent gods. Since this new, monotheistic god was supposedly so all-good and all-loving, it became necessary to come up with some way to explain all the bad things that happen in life. Satan was created.
A construct who, as you pointed out, apparently has more power and definitely more followers (all the "unsaved") that the benevolent god, but is somehow not a god himself.
What this is missing is the idea of free will. Adam and Eve chose to eat the forbidden fruit. Satan did not over power or trick God, he tricked humans and the humans used their free will to violate God's will.
Nor did God spend thousands of years developing a plan. First of all, that assumes that God experiences time like human beings. That seems unlikely according to Christian theology that God is omnipresent, or basically outside of time. For God all times are soon. Plus, Christian theology tends to find Old Testament prophecies about Christ. Isaiah's suffering servant is one of the main ones. But you could also argue that it goes back as far as God asking Abraham to offer Isaac as a sacrifice as foreshadowing God being willing to do what he didn't require Abraham to do. God was simply waiting for the best time.
And Wikipedia is not an authoritative source so anything that starts using it as one needs to be viewed skeptically.
As for only a fraction of people being saved, it comes down again to free will. It is like saying that anytime someone does something stupid it reflects on their parents.
I know that you have a negative view of Christianity. Not surprising given the type of Christianity most prevalent in Alaska. But not all Christians are like that. Many Christians are people who want to help people, are respectful of other belief systems, recognize the fact that the Bible is a document that may be divinely inspired but was written by humans and shouldn't always be taken literally. Especially when dealing with the Old Testament which was based on centuries of oral tradition rather than being written within a generation or two of the actual events.
And I have to wonder why you frequently decide to post things that are derogatory to Christians. For people like Sarah Palin all that does is prove to them that you are beyond redemption and make them less likely to consider your points on other topics (granted, the odds of that were slim to none anyway but kick slim out of the picture?). For people like myself it is frustrating because I think we would have a lot of similar goals and beliefs outside of theological concerns. To then have you basically imply that because of my beliefs that I'm an idiot is annoying. I have to ask, would you be willing to say this kind of think to President Obama's face? He is a Christian too, and I think a fairly intelligent and thoughtful one.
The trouble comes when you try to square the idea of a loving god, that would send his son to Earth to redeem humanity, with the idea of a vengeful god, who thought nothing of drowning the world and, despite his son's invention, will still burn 99.99999999% of humanity in the eternal fire.
You can't do it. The Christian god, for good or ill, so loved the world that he decided to damn, for mathematical purposes, all of it. :)
And the Free Will argument doesn't wash for one very simple reason. If Adam and Eve exercised their Free Will to take the apple, then they only did so because god gave them the ability to make their own choices. If they're damned for that, then they're damned for doing exactly what god created them to do. A god that would do such a thing has all of the emotional capacity of a three year-old who throws a tantrum when she doesn't get her way.
Neil Gaiman makes the point in his short story "Murder Mysteries" that a god who created everything isn't blameless for the evils that happen on his watch and therefore, because he has it in his powers to stop evil from happening, god allows evil to happen and has the blood of evil on his hands. Even John Milton understood that in "Paradise Lost"; that's why Lucifer is the tragic hero who wages an ultimately fruitless war against an inscrutable, unknowable, and vengeful God because it is "Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven."
Having free will doesn't mean that you don't have to face the consequences of your actions. God told Adam and Eve 'don't eat the fruit from this tree. Eat anything else you want but don't eat that'. And they had the choice of obeying God or not. They chose not to.
Saying that God is punishing people for ding what they were created to do is like saying a parent shouldn't punish a child for disobeying a rule. Say parents leave their 18 year old home alone for a weekend as they take a trip. They say 'don't have any parties while we are gone'. And then the 18 year old has a party. By punishing their child are the parents being unreasonable?
"Saying that God is punishing people for doing what they were created to do is like saying a parent shouldn't punish a child for disobeying a rule."
There's a great difference there. The child's punishment is limited to the child and will likely come to an end. Adam and Eve's punishment was eternal and applied not just to them but to their descendants. Really, parents treat their children with more love and maturity than the Christian god treats humanity. :)
I have to agree with Nyah. I am not religious, however, I thought this was the point of this site. To let people be who they want to be, free from ridicule. Isn't that why we all get together and make snarky comments about The Palin's and The GOP in general? I thought it was because they are constantly trying to shove their thoughts and beliefs down our throats. I am older and have gotten through life using this basic principle. I am happy to share with one and all. If you don't agree with the Gay Lifestyle, be Straight. If you don't believe in God, that's OK. Some people do. Leave them to it. If you don't believe in abortion, don't have one. Mind your own business. Help others when you can. That's it in a nutshell.
Really? The only reason you are a socially responsible person in the world is because you stand on a book of fairy tales and the cultification of good man who lived 2,000 years ago? Honestly, you can't do that on your own? You can't figure out for yourselves how to behave and treat your fellow man with respect. If "thou shalt not kill" wasn't written in stone (apparently, somewhere) would you go out and just kill people?
Really?
Lying, cheating, stealing...didn't your parents teach you that was wrong? Isn't that what you learned in school and along the way in life? You couldn't figure that out unless you stand behind Jesus?
Really?
Religious people love the phrase "godless athiests". Yes, they are godless. They know that being a responsible citizen and human being has nothing to do with a god or Jesus. It has to do with personal responsibility. They are able to figure out for themselves how to behave and act as decent members of society. You might want to look at the actual statistics, but prisons are filled with murders, rapists and pedophiles who will tell you Jesus is their savior. Godless atheists make up a very small percentage of the prison population.
Pledging you allegiance to some nice guy who died on a cross is no more valid than praying to golden calves or wooden tiki gods.
I really don't mean to be so harsh, but GOD I get so tired of all this sanctimonious posturing by religious people. I mean, really.
Thank you for that refreshing breath of fresh air. I mean, REALLY! -:)
BTW, anyone, where might I find independent proof that this person, Jesus, actually existed? (The idea of such a person is truly wonderful. But, if something sounds too good to be true........)
I think athiests should pause a moment before patting themselves on the back as being naturally moral people. Some of you sound about as smug and haughty as the rightwing fundies do. No one is born naturally moral. It's only with time and teaching we take on certain morals and values. And like it or not, much of what we have been taught in this society is based on teachings and moral codes of certain world religions.
i think the question is a valid one - and apparently not easily answered by devote followers.
if we cannot dissect faith in public discourse, then faith becomes more powerful than free speech.
if discussing the absurdities of faith cause discomfort, then possibly that is a reason to either continue to believe regardless of outside information or to ponder other possibilities.
my thought is that religion has always been a way to answer questions and to control populations with the benefit of some favored life after death.
i have found that many people that profess to have a personal relationship with jesus christ do not seem to actually like him very much.
I appreciate Gryphen's post, which does not call Christians "idiots" or imply that they are. It does point out the logical problem with the Christian view of salvation in a neutral way. As some of the responses to the post demonstrate, for a true believer, there is always a point where belief supersedes logic... regardless of what you believe. So why be offended by the point of view of a non-believer?
I am no longer religious (was raised as a Christian) but do believe in a higher power. I don't see this post as putting down Christians or those who have a spiritual belief. It is just asking a question that I, as a "believer," have been asked from time to time by non-believers. I don't take offense to it, or to any other posts that have appeared here re atheism vs. religion/spiritual belief. I do very much agree with calling out the hypocrisy of the pious who say one thing and behave completely differently, and try to tell others how they should live.
Regarding Satan's "power" in the Christian worldview, I have long thought that Christianity emphasizes Satan and evil because they are useful tools for controlling people. -Anne in CO
Comment #6, beautifully stated! Thank you so much. And what an excellent point- would Gryphen say these things to our president's face after seeing him become choked up when speaking of the overwhelming love he felt at knowing God the father made the sacrifice of Jesus for us? When Obama said "at the foot of the cross, [all] you can really do is take in this awesome wonder and realize...He did this for ME..." could or would Gryphen point and laugh, pull a Nelson Muntz and yell "HAAA HAAA, you believe in fairy tales!"?
I would like to think "no, surely Gryphen would never do that".
I think Gryphen would respectfully agree to disagree with our president. And I wish for him to simply understand- our faith is important to us just as his long held values are important to him.
I grew up in an unchurched home on a rural farm. I didn't realize that I had a close connection to the Spirit world because I didn't recognize hearing words on the wind, having rocks 'talk' to me and feeling comforting words from the trees when I hid my violated self high and deep in the leafy branches as parts of All That Is.
I became a Christian i.e., was 'saved' at 12 because a) I thought it would make my hellish and violent family life better (or at least help me to survive and stay alive long enough to leave) and b) because Christians represented, to my childish mind, a level of 'normal' that I desperately sought.
And then, among other things, --upon pointing out a beautiful mixed race baby to my foster father, a deacon and lay minister, I heard him say that all mixed race children should be killed because they were an 'abomination'. -- I sat through an entire sermon about the evils of the mini-skirt. --different minister railed against another church who had started a food program for the hungry. From the pulpit he thundered, "We are not here to feed hungry people, we are here to save souls." --at 13, the same minister escorted me to the door of the church and told me God didn't want people like me in his church because I asked too many questions and God demanded people who were faithful and listened to the True Word as revealed through His ministers. --Despite my questions, I was devout and believed and studied and felt called to minister. When, at 17, I revealed that to my new foster father, a Lutheran minister, he said, in no uncertain terms, that since Jesus was a man, no woman would ever be allowed to preach from behind the pulpit. I stopped attending church. --The above combined with the fact that the most hateful behaviors came from those who told me of their Christianity and by 19, I was back in seeker's mode.
Now, after much wandering and tasting and trying on for fit, I've come to a peaceful place that works for me- brings results, gives me guidance and calls me to be a bigger and better person - for myself, for others, and for the earth. Once again, as when I was young, I'm connected to the divinity of the All That Is.
Two observations- I see Christians the way I see Cops. True, they aren't all bad. But, until the 'good' ones 'police' the 'bad' ones, I shall treat them all the same --- keep my distance, don't make eye contact, watch their behavior carefully, and try not to interact.
Those who protest 'we're not the same' are hanging out at the same party. Either clean up the party or recognize that you are seen and branded as the same. And, as in the advertising world , the truth is what it is perceived to be.
Second, if Christians are secure in their belief, why does it matter when someone doesn't believe or casts aspersions? How does that affect (or effect for that matter)their belief? And, if it does matter, I wonder how strong the belief is.
I came hard won to my own beliefs and it matters not a whit if I am the only one who follows this path. There were years when I ached for the simplicity and reason of a atheist belief, but I always knew there was a Divine Spirit as I has felt the connection and experienced too many miracles and divine 'rescues' to refute it. I do not need others to tell me that I am right or wrong. My daily experiences affirm that I have found my path.
There is no threat in others' perception of my beliefs nor in their possible denigration. Short of being killed for my belief (not generally likely in the US) it matters not at all.
I wonder, in the fierceness of their beliefs, why this is not true for 'good' Christians?
Your post brought me to tears. The faith or path you've developed is benevolent and encompassing in spite of what you've experienced. It's close to my own Deist leanings. The only thing you said that I fear is wrong is that being killed for ones beliefs is "generally not likely in the US." If the Dominionists take power, that is definitely likely. Perhaps not death, but they may go back to imprisonment or re-education camps. There's no telling how far they will go.
In any case, you have found spiritual peace for yourself and I admire you greatly for it.
It isn't necessarily that Satan is "more powerful" than God, the big S just has a better sales pitch. Sure, one on one, God could probably whip Satan's ass up and down both sides of the street backwards with one hand tied behind His metaphorical back. But God keeps expecting humans to pick up the slack, while Satan still goes in for some heavy lifting on his own.
The end message is not "Satan is more powerful than God", it's "Never trust a human to get the job done right."
If you or someone you know is a prospective deity, might I suggest dogs instead of humans. At least they're loyal.
“Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will.” - MLK Jr.
The problem I have with Gryphen's religious post is not that they're questioning or challenging assumptions - it's that they're shallow attacks on religion. There are actual debates within doctrine, but his questions feel like "I watched the first 1/3 of the movie and am pointing out the plotholes. Defend your movie now."
I'm not a Christian - but one of the most fundamental aspects of religion/God is that he KNOWS all. He knew what Satan would do before he did it, and he knows how the end of the world and who will go to heaven/hell and all that. That one aspect of God - a more defining feature of what is a god - negates everything above. If someone can choose to control another, but doesn't, does that automatically strip them of power? No.
The more interesting question, thus, becomes: if He knew and had the power to stop/change things... why didn't/hasn't He?
Unfortunately, most of the religious posts on here have been of a similar 'intro to world religion course' flavor that doesn't account for even the most basic definition of 'God.'
To those feeling "put upon" by Gryphen, I want to ask:
Does your loving, all powerful god really care about those tiny children tortured by the Syrian government then returned dead to their parents?
Does your all powerful god care one whit about those children in Africa dying of AIDS or afflicted with its pain for the rest of their lives, part of them suffering because the pope said no condoms could be sent or used because of the church's stance?
Does your all powerful god care that women are beaten by their husbands and that the fundies teach you must love the assaultive husband and thank god for the opportunity of being submissive? (Look that one up which was spewed out by one of the right wing nuts who was speaking of the tenets of the right wing nuts a couple years ago.)
Is your all powerful god still having the mission statement poured forth by the pope and priests who have done little to nothing to halt the pedophile behavior that has infested their ranks since time immemorial?
The beaten and killed women in the other hemisphere could call upon your god and what? Be stronger to endure the battering until they die, or be grateful for the opportunity of suffering if they were professed christians? Be real.
If you are a loving parent or spouse aren't you expected to care for the needs of, and respect the life of your relatives and offspring?
If your god loved his created humans then why is it right for him to allow such pain and misery to visit his people, especially those tiny, suffering victims too weak or small to endure or rally?
Is your christian acceptance of all this, on FAITH so blind and innocent that you cannot think about or empathize with the cruelty that abounds in this world of humans? If god created the world, then one must admit he also created those people of color whom the Rethugs and fundies despise and look upon as lesser beings (note the judge's "joke" about bestiality this past week re: Obama)so your omnipotent god allows the horrendous physical abuse and marginalizing of those huge numbers of his people to occur hourly.
If all this is true, then any of you C or c christians try to convince me you worship a god who hears and answers your prayers. Having spent the earlier part of my life praying and believing I am so happy for the freedom of knowing that one leads by example. God loses out on the "good example" of a caring creator. He might be Republican and be overjoyed in the disharmony, vitriole, hatred, and ugliness that envelopes our planet ongoing. No one knows or can say.
None of you anywhere on this planet have the answers. No one has gone away and returned and told us what they experienced "out there." Remember even the catholic church, after decades and centuries decided there is no purgatory.
We have had people discovered in mortuaries and other spots when they were given up for dead, breathe life again. A misdiagnosed "death" when in fact life still lingered in a body is not a one time happening. Facts are what I would need.
I do not revere Hitler for his violence, nor Russia for their Jewish murdering, and I cannot say that it is right for someone, a deity, who is supposedly more powerful than any other entity, to permit the inhumane suffering of those who inhabit the planet he is credited with creating. Fairytales? Most likely.
Does anyone, anywhere, have any actual writings of Jesus' own? You c and C xtians maintain he is a god of peace. Spare me. When his disciples (in the story book) were to join him Jesus supposedly told them that they must have swords. When they did not possess one he told them to sell their cloaks in order to buy a weapon. Peaceful work of the lord's? Are you aware of how important their cloaks, maybe their only possession, was?
For that last part, about the swords, which you don't verify, but use the word "supposedly", could you please cite that? Because I really think you are mistaken. Because in the book it says Jesus said "Those who live by the sword, die by the sword".
Why do you blame God for the cruelty of humans? You think he should stop them? What then? Are we to live in a perpetual playground with a playground monitor? People with bad impulses perpetually kept in check by a perpetual monitor? What is missing from Christianity is reincarnation and karma.
I don't know if I'd call myself a Christian in the commonly understood sense. I'm the only member of my family who attends services regularly, in a sort of under-the-radar Catholic community that prays for acceptance of LGBT individuals and an end to second class citizenship for women. (I know, a Catholic church, right? But on a college campus you can get away with a lot.) I'm also an astronomer and from that point of view think that the truth, whatever it is, is much more subtle and complex than anything that can be glimpsed through parables and metaphors. What go around now calling themselves christians are really old-testament warriors, looking for an enemy to vanquish.
I take offense to those who are suggesting Gryphen is attacking them with this post. Most Christians I know have a community of strength, and they stand behind it and point fingers at those who are not active in one of those communities. Until you have been in that position, you can never understand true faith.
If you belong to a religion that says you are not okay because you do not believe what I specifically say are the rules, you are condemning your fellow human being, who is allowed to have their own beliefs.
I commend Gryphen for his efforts to have his world grant him the right to express his beliefs and am sorry that those who claim to be Christian continually turn it around as if they are being persecuted. Until you folks truly walk the walk of Jesus, who did not worship himself...he worshipped God only, he was Jewish...you should give some more thoughts to your posts.
Allow others to question, to search, to try to understand their feelings, simply love what is. And stop trying to tell people they are WRONG.
Religious "books" written a couple of centuries ago are based mostly of lore, and hearsay that are based on a kernel of truth. Like a game of gossip the story morphs with retelling but the kernel remains.
If, say, the Bible, which has been heavily rewritten and edited, is taken as literal it is undefendable in the context of modern knowledge and science. (Not to mention that translation of idiomatic languages, and all languages are idiomatic, can never be word for word literal, so there is always loss and shifting of nuance in a translation.)
However like Aesops fables, the truth is in the lesson of the story not in the "fact" that animals don't actually behave the way the fables say they do.
That is why the Gospels with their parables are up front in the Christian part of the Bible. They are the lessons Christians are supposed to learn.
The point of Christ walking on the water isn't that he was magical, it was his call to believe even in the face of what seems impossible. It is not the story that is important it is the point of the story.
Only comment I have is that I thought the icon on the right's face was melting - then I figured out it is a beard. Even so, it still looks like it's melting.
I'm in my mid-20's. I was raised by my mother who converted to Catholicism to marry my step dad, and by my biological father and step mother who went to a church too similar to the one the grizzled governor attended.
My mom never really believed in the doctrine of the Catholic church and (with my step's blessing!) plans to return to her not-Christian roots when all her children are out of the house, but she teaches and volunteers all the time, and my step dad helps out as much as he is able, happy to pick up the slack at home while Mom does her thing with the church. When I talk to her and my step dad on the phone, they never bug me about religion, but they are happy for my classes and my boyfriend.
My dad and my step mom ask all the time after church for me in college. Have I found one? Am I going? I'm not going to "worship Mary" with my mom, am I? Why do I need to go to college? I'm just like my mother! My dad covered for my step mother's drunken anger and strange, abusive antics. They go to church on Sundays with a preacher who preaches off the cuff.
My mom has dealt with the problems with the Catholic church by simply saying, "I am not here for it's past, I am here for it's present and it's future." She worships the god of miracles. She doesn't push the church's teachings. In most cases, she listens when there is a problem, and teaches the most interesting classes in church. My dad did a lot of terrible things to her over the years, from being abusive in their marriage to dragging her to court on unfounded charges more than once (and wiping out her retirement) when I was growing up. She never complained. She cried a bit, but she never complained. My father has stayed with an alcoholic woman for 15 years, knowing that when he had custody of me and my younger sibling temporarily that she abused us. He wasted his share of my sibling's and my PFD money on jewelry for her and she hawked it for booze one rainy night in Georgia.
I think that in the end, the good or the bad wins in a case by case situation, person by person. People remake God in their own image. My father and step mom know the destructive Satan intimately, but don't know it. My mom and step dad don't know the mean god of whom you speak, and they say that church is only a vehicle for learning about God, that He is too huge to comprehend.
I come to your site for the variety of things you post.
It's pretty astounding that anyone would even suggest that you should limit yourself to Palin and I can only hope the people who think they have a right to tell you what to post will eventually grow up.
I am tiring of her and, as I have learned with other abusive people, it can be easy to get caught up in spending “all of our time” thinking about them and what they are doing and not taking time for other things that are important to us.
(Sadly it appears the people suggesting you limit yourself to posts about Palin are unable to see that this does have relevance to Palin and others who are held in high regard in Christian communities.)
The finest trick of the devil is to persuade you that he does not exist...
Wouldn't it be ironic if were revealed that this is exactly what has happened?
It would be easy to do if you withheld original text, kept it hidden and protected, while throwing up a few false flag religions that actually through fear and hatred. This would keep you focused on fear rather than Love, and this actually kept people divided? Imagine, a religion or two that actually conditioned you to believe God (Love) is spiteful, vengeful, and allows suffering because it proves YOUR love of him. Kind of explains how a certain type of person could vote against their own best interest and lend understanding to the sway of Palin, Bachman, Frothy, RawMoney and the likes.
The truth is: Love is good, fear is not, so to go against the truth (love) feeds fear.
Go ahead and ponder that possibility. Could you imagine waking up one day to find out you've been tricked into supporting evil all along?
Yeah, I might be wrong, but there's a 50-50 chance I could be right.
Finally, If you aren't secure enough with your stance in YOUR faith, and feel attacked by Gryphen's opinion, it sounds to me like the problem is with your faith.
Simple propaganda poster from a simple man? Have you ever heard of philosophy and theology? Have you read Pseudo-Dionysius, Chrysostom, Plotinus, Plato, Gregory Nazianzus, Aristotle, etc.? Oh it is true...wikipedia is your source of knowledge as is indicated in your footnote.
The author of this graphic makes an assertion at the end that, based on my years of following the Christian faith and being around others who do, I just don't think Christians really believe, not even in their heart of hearts. What most of us really get around to wondering about is: why does God allow evil?
I actually think many people who are not Christians ponder a very similar variation of the question...why does evil exist, is good stronger than evil, etc.
One of the most interesting books I've read in some time that tackled this question is called "The Shack." I highly recommend it. The main character in the story grapples with the worst thing that could ever happen to someone, which leads him to asking this question...and to meeting the Holy Trinity in person. (Spoiler alert: God is a black woman named Papa. The Holy Spirit is an Asian gardener. And Jesus is a manual laborer.)
Thanks, all of you, for the interesting comments posted here.
First my disclaimer: I was brought up Presbyterian, spent most of my adult life as an agnostic, attended a Unitarian church for a while (and dabbled in its pagan sub-group) before finally converting to the Catholic Church--which does not promote worship of Mary, by the way--just veneration. I've written a few posts trying to persuade people that the Roman Catholic church does not subscribe to young-earth theories or a belief in the Bible as the literal and inerrant word of God, and that most priests are not child molesters, but kind men who work very hard in their parishes. I've also heaped praise on the long, outstanding history of Catholics in the hard sciences, as well as theology and philosophy.
My main comment tonight is this: Gryphen is not a philosopher or theologian, and he doesn't pretend to be. He's a keen and sharp-witted observer of human behavior. And most amazingly of all, he writes several excellent posts every single day. As a former English teacher, this fact alone astounds me.
I'm not offended at all by the Wikipedia chart. It has provoked some thoughtful comments, which is probably what G. intended all along.
P.S. The historian Tacitus wrote about the death of Christ at the hands of Pontius Pilate. Maybe others did as well. History's not my forte.
I'm not a Christian but I can easily explain why your pictograph is "wrong." First is clearly motivated by petty hatred, intended to obfuscate rather than illuminate, and it embraces the same wrong-headed personification strategies of understanding scriptural references to deity that has befuddled the small-minded for centuries. I find the antagonistic atheists as boorishly offensive as the pedantic evangelicals- but hey, that's just me. In a world filled with a diverse rainbow of Christians, your mission is to paint all of them as fools. When you post this trash it looks to me like your hands are pretty well stained with that same pigment. -TS
That's about as "solid" a source as the Bible itself!
Serious fail, Gryph.
(Psst- Didya know the Bible had many, MANY "Books" that were ultimately eliminated b/c of various reasons - and length WAS a consideration! This was an EDITED book - it was meant for people to CARRY with them as they TRAVELLED to different regions to share the stories. EVERY, single story was not able to be included - it would have been like hauling the entire Encyclopedia Brittanica!
And Jesus didn't write it either.
Scientists are unable to explain how there is an image of a face on the Shroud of Turin.
They simply can not explain it.
And the Carbon dating fiasco was like a supernatural laugh, with naysayers saying "Ha ha", when in fact, the true age of the fabric aligns with Christ's timeline.
Yes everybody knows that there were various gospels left out of the New Testament, as well as that there have been numerous translations of the Old Testament that have been so poor that the book we see today is NOTHING like the original. Ask a Jewish person to explain that to you.
As for the Shroud of Turin, I would certainly NOT want to use that as proof of anything. http://tinyurl.com/7e645jb
This is the program from which I gained my information. Despite the information in your article about the fabric, etc., I stand with the scientists in their question~ HOW does the fabric they have contain an imprint on par with that of geographic mapping?
(FYI to the rest of you: Scientists "ran" the Shroud of Turin through a machine that "mapped" out topographical maps, and the Shroud of Turin actually emitted a THREE DIMENSIONAL Face.
Supposing your info of a 3D face is valid (wonder why it's only the face ? You know, the whole body is on the shroud, front and back), that 3D quality could be easily explained.
Some folks, around 1280, could have taken a man with the right kind of features and accessories, then they covered him in red paint and/or human blood, and they laid him inside a recently woven shroud. Thus they made the imprint, and ta-daa ! Holy Shroud of Turin.
Not very hard to explain, not very hard to do either - once you allow your mind to answer questions that your faith won't accept.
Besides, if that was a 3D face as you claim, the ears would be much farther apart. Have you seen the "Mask of Agamemnon" : that's a surface of gold that has really been mapped on a 3D face : it's oblong, with the bigger size being the width of the face.
How come the Shroud looks like 2 flat pictures of someone ? Of course, it would look like that if it were the imprint of a wooden low-relief sculpture covered in blood...
I've heard some people argue that the imprint was made, not by the blood, but by the Resurrection's energy. And that this spent energy changed the carbon 14 content, so as to make it look as if it had been made in 1300. OK. So the Resurrection's energy flowed exactly perpendular up (and down) from the body's horizontal middle plan, not at all perpendicular from the skin as one would get, and no blurring at all happened, and no energy at all flowed from the sides ?
Let's face it, in his shroud, Jesus was tightly wrapped ; any resulting imprint would be a mosaic of hardly recognizable bloodied bits, separated with white surfaces, where the linen made folds - if one assumes that he was buried with shroud but without ritual washing, which I highly doubt.
Jesus existed, he was maybe buried in a shroud, but not in the Shroud of Turin. The Shroud of Turin is not a proof of the existence of Jesus, it's only a proof of people's gullibility in matters of faith.
The Shroud's history backs its topology. At the time found by the carbon dating, there was a very lucrative trade of holy relics ; the Shroud had never been known as existing before that time ; the imprint was quite clear when the Shroud was "discovered", but now, 700 or 800 years later, its colors have faded so much that it takes a few minutes of constant staring to discern any features on the Shroud.
To get the most known picture of the "Face on the Shroud", one has had to resort to enhance negative pictures...
If the Shroud were 2000 years old, with the same fading rate that we've had during the last 700 years, when it has been mostly kept hidden from light, as to preserve it, nothing would have been visible on it by the time it was "found".
The Catholic Church has never formally recognized it as authentic ; it's an "object of faith", as in, some people believe in it, but it's not an acknowledged relic.
Sorry for everybody who is Christian and who feels attacked. I'm sure that if they could get past the outrage they always feel when a non-Christian questions their faith, and start thinking, they would come up with the same analysis, though they would use some wording that wouldn't anger them.
The Old Testament's entire message is "Believe in me, or else" ; and still the Chosen People keep on straying... The New Testament calls to gratitude instead of fear, but makes it still obvious that the vast majority of believers don't believe enough. So yes, "Satan" wins, all the time. And to prevent him from totally winning, the believers must spend their lives turned to God / helping God make a difference with all their prayers and whatnots.
I think I remember reading in old religious books that this World was all Satan's, and the Next would be God's (unless one listened to Satan, in that case you were stucked with Satan for all eternity). It's totally in agreement with Gryphen's conclusions.
Theologians have been wrestling with the problem of evil for two millennia.
ReplyDeleteThere are some who think that if there is a Hell, that those who are there want to be there. (That's the idea behind Dante and the theology The Divine Comedy uses.) And there are others who think that there isn't anyone in Hell at all.
One of the most creative solutions to the problem comes from a Philip K. Dick novel, A Maze of Death. The Christian god isn't a three-headed monster, it's actually a four-headed monster. The Trinity has three aspects -- creator (God), human (Jesus), and spirit (Holy Spirit). Dick's insight was that God needed to have four aspects -- creator (God), destroyer (Satan), human (Jesus), and spirit (Holy Spirit).
Makes a lot of sense, really. :)
None of these Bronze Age superstitions make sense to anyone with a functioning brain.
DeleteDon't think, just BELIEVE!
What is the difference between "God" and "Spirit" cause to my Taoists way of thinking, if God is not Spirit ( and vice versa) then what and who are God and/or spirit?
DeleteAND how do you conceive "God"? I mean what kind of an entity is he/she?
People talk about their beliefe in God all the time but they never define what God is or even what THEY mean by word God.
I have NO idea, and I am not being sarcastic here, just truthful, WHAT THE WORD GOD means to most people, whatever their faith, and now I am confused by what is meant by "God" and "spirit" being different.
P.S. I capilize the word "God" out of respect for others' belief, not because I believe in "God" as others may or may not define it.
Exactly! This is always my rough general response when I'm talked down to by a 'Christian'. They don't have an answer and generally get angry. They connect that anger with you (and hence atheists in general) instead of really addressing what about it makes them angry. The truth is is that the constant illogic of the bible is known to them on some level, sometimes deep down where it is never addressed or dug up and examined. Some Christians are fully conscious of it and hence use the bible as a flawed book of metaphor, rather than actually think it is literal and unflawed.
ReplyDeleteIt is a fact that the book is highly flawed. If it was a literal work from someone who loves us wouldn't it include a little side note about sanitation and washing hands before childbirth for just one example? And save womankind thousands of years of playing Russian roulette with their lives simply having a family? We know it is flawed also because for just one example of thousands it describes rabbits as cud chewing animals. An easy mistake for a desert sheep herder 3000 years ago to make; why it's almost like god didn't help at all!
I'm not even a Real True Christian (nor do I play one on TV) but even so, it's really easy to find the fatal flaw. Item 3 does not even reference the Bible much less the blessed King James Version. Therefore the exercise is flawed.
ReplyDeleteGod is not logical and logic is not God.
Gryphen, I'm really and truly OVER your attacks on Christians. Many of your readers are "big C Christians" rather than "little c christians" aka Sarah Palin christians.
ReplyDeleteIt's gotten to the point where you seem to ridicule people of faith more than any other one thing.
I love IM ; there is literally NO other place in the world where I feel like I can be totally open about the anger and frustration I feel concerning Palin and her rabidly delusional followers. But I will have no choice but to leave if something very important to me keeps being ruthlessly attacked again and again.
I doubt you could HAVE a bigger cheerleader than me- I encouraged everyone to donate to you when Joe's book came out and I have sent dozens of people here to discover the REAL Sarah Palin.
Why can't you let those of us who believe and do our best to simply "love one another" as Jesus said do above all else, those of us who simply want to live our lives helping the "alien, fatherless, and widowed"...just LIVE our lives without feeling constantly under attack?
What you need to attack are the people who twist and mangle "religion" to suit their own nefarious and narcissistic agendas. REAL Christians love gay people as much as we love anyone else, we would never force our faith upon anyone, and we simply want to be accepted like anyone else. We pursue a relationship with Jesus, not "religion" with some unknown sky deity.
And for most of us- it is a very important aspect of our lives. For you to continue to deride our closely held faith as "fairy tales" or call the conception of Jesus "rape" shows an alarming disrespect for us. As someone who seems to preach tolerance toward people different than oneself, I really do not understand why you have been so cavalierly offensive concerning Christians.
Please, Gryphen. Just think about it.
Thank you Nyah! Now I will scroll down to see if there is a new post that will expose the Palin madness.I am very happy being a Big C. It's the small c's and no c's that seem to be so unhappy with life.
DeleteOur president and family are a perfect example of faith and caring. The Palin's aren't.The Obama's are caring and loving, the Palin's aren't.
God didn't open the door for the Obama's, they gave them strength and knowledge to make good choices. The Palin's weren't "called" to lead, they have lied and cheated to get everything they have. I don't see much happiness in their family, but jealousy and deceit in everything they do. Would you buy a used car from them? I trust our president to make the right decisions for our country, I don't trust anything the Palin's do.
President Obama doesn't wear his faith on his lapel,or with bling. His smile says it all. I don't expect his girls will be in reality shows or dancing with the stars when his term is up, nor the girls giving abstinence lectures to make lots of money and being single mother's. I see them finishing high school with honors and going on to college and excelling in their life. They will talk, dress and act appropriately as they have been taught well all their lives. They are nice people. They don't radiate hate with their talk and actions.
Now, that's big C! I see a big K (Kaos) with all things Palin.
I sleep good at night knowing a man of faith and knowledge is at our helm.
Nyah and Anon, perfectly great comments! I avoid religion...religiously... :) ...but I don't have any problem with my spiritual beliefs. In fact, a foundation in Christianity is what has helped develop them over my lifetime. I think the attacks are uncalled for or at least need to be channeled more productively toward those who deserve them. I have many wonderful Christian friends, but I avoid the judgmental, narrow minded ones at all costs. They are creepy and scary. That said, I think the above chart re "Satan" is right on.
DeleteNyah, Anon, and Lynne: I appreciate your positions and I rejoice in the fact that some "big C" Christians still exist. However, (you knew there was an "however" coming, right?)I think you take these posts much too personally. If your faith is strongly rooted, then these expressions of doubt, or, sometimes, ridicule,should be able to roll off your back. You have a choice to either refute them with the logic that informs your faith, or ignore them. Accusing Gryph of attacking your religion is unfair. Gryph has made no secret of his spiritual stance and has even said that he originally wanted to do a blog solely on atheism until the public discourse was hijacked by the Quitler. Anyway, it's still Gryph's blog and his decision what to post. We'd hate to lose your input over a perceived slight. It's NOT personal. IMHO
Delete~physicsmom
Satan was a construct that developed when monotheism (Old Testament god as well as the New Testament god) came into fashion to explain all the negative things in life. In the old, polytheistic days, they simply had evil gods as well as benevolent gods. Since this new, monotheistic god was supposedly so all-good and all-loving, it became necessary to come up with some way to explain all the bad things that happen in life. Satan was created.
ReplyDeleteA construct who, as you pointed out, apparently has more power and definitely more followers (all the "unsaved") that the benevolent god, but is somehow not a god himself.
What this is missing is the idea of free will. Adam and Eve chose to eat the forbidden fruit. Satan did not over power or trick God, he tricked humans and the humans used their free will to violate God's will.
ReplyDeleteNor did God spend thousands of years developing a plan. First of all, that assumes that God experiences time like human beings. That seems unlikely according to Christian theology that God is omnipresent, or basically outside of time. For God all times are soon. Plus, Christian theology tends to find Old Testament prophecies about Christ. Isaiah's suffering servant is one of the main ones. But you could also argue that it goes back as far as God asking Abraham to offer Isaac as a sacrifice as foreshadowing God being willing to do what he didn't require Abraham to do. God was simply waiting for the best time.
And Wikipedia is not an authoritative source so anything that starts using it as one needs to be viewed skeptically.
As for only a fraction of people being saved, it comes down again to free will. It is like saying that anytime someone does something stupid it reflects on their parents.
I know that you have a negative view of Christianity. Not surprising given the type of Christianity most prevalent in Alaska. But not all Christians are like that. Many Christians are people who want to help people, are respectful of other belief systems, recognize the fact that the Bible is a document that may be divinely inspired but was written by humans and shouldn't always be taken literally. Especially when dealing with the Old Testament which was based on centuries of oral tradition rather than being written within a generation or two of the actual events.
And I have to wonder why you frequently decide to post things that are derogatory to Christians. For people like Sarah Palin all that does is prove to them that you are beyond redemption and make them less likely to consider your points on other topics (granted, the odds of that were slim to none anyway but kick slim out of the picture?). For people like myself it is frustrating because I think we would have a lot of similar goals and beliefs outside of theological concerns. To then have you basically imply that because of my beliefs that I'm an idiot is annoying. I have to ask, would you be willing to say this kind of think to President Obama's face? He is a Christian too, and I think a fairly intelligent and thoughtful one.
The trouble comes when you try to square the idea of a loving god, that would send his son to Earth to redeem humanity, with the idea of a vengeful god, who thought nothing of drowning the world and, despite his son's invention, will still burn 99.99999999% of humanity in the eternal fire.
DeleteYou can't do it. The Christian god, for good or ill, so loved the world that he decided to damn, for mathematical purposes, all of it. :)
And the Free Will argument doesn't wash for one very simple reason. If Adam and Eve exercised their Free Will to take the apple, then they only did so because god gave them the ability to make their own choices. If they're damned for that, then they're damned for doing exactly what god created them to do. A god that would do such a thing has all of the emotional capacity of a three year-old who throws a tantrum when she doesn't get her way.
Neil Gaiman makes the point in his short story "Murder Mysteries" that a god who created everything isn't blameless for the evils that happen on his watch and therefore, because he has it in his powers to stop evil from happening, god allows evil to happen and has the blood of evil on his hands. Even John Milton understood that in "Paradise Lost"; that's why Lucifer is the tragic hero who wages an ultimately fruitless war against an inscrutable, unknowable, and vengeful God because it is "Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven."
Having free will doesn't mean that you don't have to face the consequences of your actions. God told Adam and Eve 'don't eat the fruit from this tree. Eat anything else you want but don't eat that'. And they had the choice of obeying God or not. They chose not to.
DeleteSaying that God is punishing people for ding what they were created to do is like saying a parent shouldn't punish a child for disobeying a rule. Say parents leave their 18 year old home alone for a weekend as they take a trip. They say 'don't have any parties while we are gone'. And then the 18 year old has a party. By punishing their child are the parents being unreasonable?
"Saying that God is punishing people for doing what they were created to do is like saying a parent shouldn't punish a child for disobeying a rule."
DeleteThere's a great difference there. The child's punishment is limited to the child and will likely come to an end. Adam and Eve's punishment was eternal and applied not just to them but to their descendants. Really, parents treat their children with more love and maturity than the Christian god treats humanity. :)
I have to agree with Nyah. I am not religious, however, I thought this was the point of this site. To let people be who they want to be, free from ridicule. Isn't that why we all get together and make snarky comments about The Palin's and The GOP in general? I thought it was because they are constantly trying to shove their thoughts and beliefs down our throats. I am older and have gotten through life using this basic principle. I am happy to share with one and all.
ReplyDeleteIf you don't agree with the Gay Lifestyle, be Straight.
If you don't believe in God, that's OK. Some people do. Leave them to it.
If you don't believe in abortion, don't have one.
Mind your own business. Help others when you can.
That's it in a nutshell.
My question to Christians is: Really?
ReplyDeleteReally? The only reason you are a socially responsible person in the world is because you stand on a book of fairy tales and the cultification of good man who lived 2,000 years ago? Honestly, you can't do that on your own? You can't figure out for yourselves how to behave and treat your fellow man with respect. If "thou shalt not kill" wasn't written in stone (apparently, somewhere) would you go out and just kill people?
Really?
Lying, cheating, stealing...didn't your parents teach you that was wrong? Isn't that what you learned in school and along the way in life? You couldn't figure that out unless you stand behind Jesus?
Really?
Religious people love the phrase "godless athiests". Yes, they are godless. They know that being a responsible citizen and human being has nothing to do with a god or Jesus. It has to do with personal responsibility. They are able to figure out for themselves how to behave and act as decent members of society. You might want to look at the actual statistics, but prisons are filled with murders, rapists and pedophiles who will tell you Jesus is their savior. Godless atheists make up a very small percentage of the prison population.
Pledging you allegiance to some nice guy who died on a cross is no more valid than praying to golden calves or wooden tiki gods.
I really don't mean to be so harsh, but GOD I get so tired of all this sanctimonious posturing by religious people. I mean, really.
Couldn't have said it better -- THANK YOU!
DeleteThank you for that refreshing breath of fresh air. I mean, REALLY! -:)
DeleteBTW, anyone, where might I find independent proof that this person, Jesus, actually existed? (The idea of such a person is truly wonderful. But, if something sounds too good to be true........)
The point of Christianity is choice, personal choice. The choice of the path of light or the path of darkness.
DeleteVirtually all ancient stories are blends of truths and a good story line.
You are the ones taking the story line and trying to make out that it is the truths.
That makes you just as deluded as the Xians, who make up a small minority of the worlds faithful, what every their faith is.
I think athiests should pause a moment before patting themselves on the back as being naturally moral people. Some of you sound about as smug and haughty as the rightwing fundies do. No one is born naturally moral. It's only with time and teaching we take on certain morals and values. And like it or not, much of what we have been taught in this society is based on teachings and moral codes of certain world religions.
Deletei think the question is a valid one - and apparently not easily answered by devote followers.
ReplyDeleteif we cannot dissect faith in public discourse, then faith becomes more powerful than free speech.
if discussing the absurdities of faith cause discomfort, then possibly that is a reason to either continue to believe regardless of outside information or to ponder other possibilities.
my thought is that religion has always been a way to answer questions and to control populations with the benefit of some favored life after death.
i have found that many people that profess to have a personal relationship with jesus christ do not seem to actually like him very much.
I appreciate Gryphen's post, which does not call Christians "idiots" or imply that they are. It does point out the logical problem with the Christian view of salvation in a neutral way. As some of the responses to the post demonstrate, for a true believer, there is always a point where belief supersedes logic... regardless of what you believe. So why be offended by the point of view of a non-believer?
ReplyDeleteI am no longer religious (was raised as a Christian) but do believe in a higher power. I don't see this post as putting down Christians or those who have a spiritual belief. It is just asking a question that I, as a "believer," have been asked from time to time by non-believers. I don't take offense to it, or to any other posts that have appeared here re atheism vs. religion/spiritual belief. I do very much agree with calling out the hypocrisy of the pious who say one thing and behave completely differently, and try to tell others how they should live.
Regarding Satan's "power" in the Christian worldview, I have long thought that Christianity emphasizes Satan and evil because they are useful tools for controlling people.
-Anne in CO
Comment #6, beautifully stated! Thank you so much. And what an excellent point- would Gryphen say these things to our president's face after seeing him become choked up when speaking of the overwhelming love he felt at knowing God the father made the sacrifice of Jesus for us? When Obama said "at the foot of the cross, [all] you can really do is take in this awesome wonder and realize...He did this for ME..." could or would Gryphen point and laugh, pull a Nelson Muntz and yell "HAAA HAAA, you believe in fairy tales!"?
ReplyDeleteI would like to think "no, surely Gryphen would never do that".
I think Gryphen would respectfully agree to disagree with our president. And I wish for him to simply understand- our faith is important to us just as his long held values are important to him.
I grew up in an unchurched home on a rural farm. I didn't realize that I had a close connection to the Spirit world because I didn't recognize hearing words on the wind, having rocks 'talk' to me and feeling comforting words from the trees when I hid my violated self high and deep in the leafy branches as parts of All That Is.
ReplyDeleteI became a Christian i.e., was 'saved' at 12 because a) I thought it would make my hellish and violent family life better (or at least help me to survive and stay alive long enough to leave) and b) because Christians represented, to my childish mind, a level of 'normal' that I desperately sought.
And then, among other things,
--upon pointing out a beautiful mixed race baby to my foster father, a deacon and lay minister, I heard him say that all mixed race children should be killed because they were an 'abomination'.
-- I sat through an entire sermon about the evils of the mini-skirt.
--different minister railed against another church who had started a food program for the hungry. From the pulpit he thundered, "We are not here to feed hungry people, we are here to save souls."
--at 13, the same minister escorted me to the door of the church and told me God didn't want people like me in his church because I asked too many questions and God demanded people who were faithful and listened to the True Word as revealed through His ministers.
--Despite my questions, I was devout and believed and studied and felt called to minister. When, at 17, I revealed that to my new foster father, a Lutheran minister, he said, in no uncertain terms, that since Jesus was a man, no woman would ever be allowed to preach from behind the pulpit. I stopped attending church.
--The above combined with the fact that the most hateful behaviors came from those who told me of their Christianity and by 19, I was back in seeker's mode.
Now, after much wandering and tasting and trying on for fit, I've come to a peaceful place that works for me- brings results, gives me guidance and calls me to be a bigger and better person - for myself, for others, and for the earth. Once again, as when I was young, I'm connected to the divinity of the All That Is.
Two observations- I see Christians the way I see Cops. True, they aren't all bad. But, until the 'good' ones 'police' the 'bad' ones, I shall treat them all the same --- keep my distance, don't make eye contact, watch their behavior carefully, and try not to interact.
Those who protest 'we're not the same' are hanging out at the same party. Either clean up the party or recognize that you are seen and branded as the same. And, as in the advertising world , the truth is what it is perceived to be.
Second, if Christians are secure in their belief, why does it matter when someone doesn't believe or casts aspersions? How does that affect (or effect for that matter)their belief? And, if it does matter, I wonder how strong the belief is.
I came hard won to my own beliefs and it matters not a whit if I am the only one who follows this path. There were years when I ached for the simplicity and reason of a atheist belief, but I always knew there was a Divine Spirit as I has felt the connection and experienced too many miracles and divine 'rescues' to refute it. I do not need others to tell me that I am right or wrong. My daily experiences affirm that I have found my path.
There is no threat in others' perception of my beliefs nor in their possible denigration. Short of being killed for my belief (not generally likely in the US) it matters not at all.
I wonder, in the fierceness of their beliefs, why this is not true for 'good' Christians?
Your post brought me to tears. The faith or path you've developed is benevolent and encompassing in spite of what you've experienced. It's close to my own Deist leanings. The only thing you said that I fear is wrong is that being killed for ones beliefs is "generally not likely in the US." If the Dominionists take power, that is definitely likely. Perhaps not death, but they may go back to imprisonment or re-education camps. There's no telling how far they will go.
DeleteIn any case, you have found spiritual peace for yourself and I admire you greatly for it.
~physicsmom
Beautifully expressed! Thank you for sharing your story. Peace
DeleteNot sure how you expect some Christians to police the others.
DeleteIt isn't necessarily that Satan is "more powerful" than God, the big S just has a better sales pitch. Sure, one on one, God could probably whip Satan's ass up and down both sides of the street backwards with one hand tied behind His metaphorical back. But God keeps expecting humans to pick up the slack, while Satan still goes in for some heavy lifting on his own.
ReplyDeleteThe end message is not "Satan is more powerful than God", it's "Never trust a human to get the job done right."
If you or someone you know is a prospective deity, might I suggest dogs instead of humans. At least they're loyal.
“Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will.” - MLK Jr.
ReplyDeleteThe problem I have with Gryphen's religious post is not that they're questioning or challenging assumptions - it's that they're shallow attacks on religion. There are actual debates within doctrine, but his questions feel like "I watched the first 1/3 of the movie and am pointing out the plotholes. Defend your movie now."
I'm not a Christian - but one of the most fundamental aspects of religion/God is that he KNOWS all. He knew what Satan would do before he did it, and he knows how the end of the world and who will go to heaven/hell and all that. That one aspect of God - a more defining feature of what is a god - negates everything above. If someone can choose to control another, but doesn't, does that automatically strip them of power? No.
The more interesting question, thus, becomes: if He knew and had the power to stop/change things... why didn't/hasn't He?
Unfortunately, most of the religious posts on here have been of a similar 'intro to world religion course' flavor that doesn't account for even the most basic definition of 'God.'
To those feeling "put upon" by Gryphen, I want to ask:
ReplyDeleteDoes your loving, all powerful god really care about those tiny children tortured by the Syrian government then returned dead to their parents?
Does your all powerful god care one whit about those children in Africa dying of AIDS or afflicted with its pain for the rest of their lives, part of them suffering because the pope said no condoms could be sent or used because of the church's stance?
Does your all powerful god care that women are beaten by their husbands and that the fundies teach you must love the assaultive husband and thank god for the opportunity of being submissive? (Look that one up which was spewed out by one of the right wing nuts who was speaking of the tenets of the right wing nuts a couple years ago.)
Is your all powerful god still having the mission statement poured forth by the pope and priests who have done little to nothing to halt the pedophile behavior that has infested their ranks since time immemorial?
The beaten and killed women in the other hemisphere could call upon your god and what? Be stronger to endure the battering until they die, or be grateful for the opportunity of suffering if they were professed christians? Be real.
If you are a loving parent or spouse aren't you expected to care for the needs of, and respect the life of your relatives and offspring?
If your god loved his created humans then why is it right for him to allow such pain and misery to visit his people, especially those tiny, suffering victims too weak or small to endure or rally?
Is your christian acceptance of all this, on FAITH so blind and innocent that you cannot think about or empathize with the cruelty that abounds in this world of humans? If god created the world, then one must admit he also created those people of color whom the Rethugs and fundies despise and look upon as lesser beings (note the judge's "joke" about bestiality this past week re: Obama)so your omnipotent god allows the horrendous physical abuse and marginalizing of those huge numbers of his people to occur hourly.
If all this is true, then any of you C or c christians try to convince me you worship a god who hears and answers your prayers. Having spent the earlier part of my life praying and believing I am so happy for the freedom of knowing that one leads by example. God loses out on the "good example" of a caring creator. He might be Republican and be overjoyed in the disharmony, vitriole, hatred, and ugliness that envelopes our planet ongoing. No one knows or can say.
None of you anywhere on this planet have the answers. No one has gone away and returned and told us what they experienced "out there." Remember even the catholic church, after decades and centuries decided there is no purgatory.
We have had people discovered in mortuaries and other spots when they were given up for dead, breathe life again. A misdiagnosed "death" when in fact life still lingered in a body is not a one time happening. Facts are what I would need.
I do not revere Hitler for his violence, nor Russia for their Jewish murdering, and I cannot say that it is right for someone, a deity, who is supposedly more powerful than any other entity, to permit the inhumane suffering of those who inhabit the planet he is credited with creating. Fairytales? Most likely.
Does anyone, anywhere, have any actual writings of Jesus' own? You c and C xtians maintain he is a god of peace. Spare me. When his disciples (in the story book) were to join him Jesus supposedly told them that they must have swords. When they did not possess one he told them to sell their cloaks in order to buy a weapon. Peaceful work of the lord's? Are you aware of how important their cloaks, maybe their only possession, was?
For that last part, about the swords, which you don't verify, but use the word "supposedly", could you please cite that? Because I really think you are mistaken. Because in the book it says Jesus said "Those who live by the sword, die by the sword".
DeleteWhy do you blame God for the cruelty of humans? You think he should stop them? What then? Are we to live in a perpetual playground with a playground monitor? People with bad impulses perpetually kept in check by a perpetual monitor? What is missing from Christianity is reincarnation and karma.
DeleteI don't know if I'd call myself a Christian in the commonly understood sense. I'm the only member of my family who attends services regularly, in a sort of under-the-radar Catholic community that prays for acceptance of LGBT individuals and an end to second class citizenship for women. (I know, a Catholic church, right? But on a college campus you can get away with a lot.) I'm also an astronomer and from that point of view think that the truth, whatever it is, is much more subtle and complex than anything that can be glimpsed through parables and metaphors. What go around now calling themselves christians are really old-testament warriors, looking for an enemy to vanquish.
ReplyDeleteI take offense to those who are suggesting Gryphen is attacking them with this post. Most Christians I know have a community of strength, and they stand behind it and point fingers at those who are not active in one of those communities. Until you have been in that position, you can never understand true faith.
ReplyDeleteIf you belong to a religion that says you are not okay because you do not believe what I specifically say are the rules, you are condemning your fellow human being, who is allowed to have their own beliefs.
I commend Gryphen for his efforts to have his world grant him the right to express his beliefs and am sorry that those who claim to be Christian continually turn it around as if they are being persecuted. Until you folks truly walk the walk of Jesus, who did not worship himself...he worshipped God only, he was Jewish...you should give some more thoughts to your posts.
Allow others to question, to search, to try to understand their feelings, simply love what is. And stop trying to tell people they are WRONG.
Religious "books" written a couple of centuries ago are based mostly of lore, and hearsay that are based on a kernel of truth. Like a game of gossip the story morphs with retelling but the kernel remains.
ReplyDeleteIf, say, the Bible, which has been heavily rewritten and edited, is taken as literal it is undefendable in the context of modern knowledge and science. (Not to mention that translation of idiomatic languages, and all languages are idiomatic, can never be word for word literal, so there is always loss and shifting of nuance in a translation.)
However like Aesops fables, the truth is in the lesson of the story not in the "fact" that animals don't actually behave the way the fables say they do.
That is why the Gospels with their parables are up front in the Christian part of the Bible. They are the lessons Christians are supposed to learn.
The point of Christ walking on the water isn't that he was magical, it was his call to believe even in the face of what seems impossible.
It is not the story that is important it is the point of the story.
Only comment I have is that I thought the icon on the right's face was melting - then I figured out it is a beard. Even so, it still looks like it's melting.
ReplyDelete~physicsmom
I think it looks like icicles on my house. Melting for sure!
DeleteI'm in my mid-20's. I was raised by my mother who converted to Catholicism to marry my step dad, and by my biological father and step mother who went to a church too similar to the one the grizzled governor attended.
ReplyDeleteMy mom never really believed in the doctrine of the Catholic church and (with my step's blessing!) plans to return to her not-Christian roots when all her children are out of the house, but she teaches and volunteers all the time, and my step dad helps out as much as he is able, happy to pick up the slack at home while Mom does her thing with the church. When I talk to her and my step dad on the phone, they never bug me about religion, but they are happy for my classes and my boyfriend.
My dad and my step mom ask all the time after church for me in college. Have I found one? Am I going? I'm not going to "worship Mary" with my mom, am I? Why do I need to go to college? I'm just like my mother! My dad covered for my step mother's drunken anger and strange, abusive antics. They go to church on Sundays with a preacher who preaches off the cuff.
My mom has dealt with the problems with the Catholic church by simply saying, "I am not here for it's past, I am here for it's present and it's future." She worships the god of miracles. She doesn't push the church's teachings. In most cases, she listens when there is a problem, and teaches the most interesting classes in church. My dad did a lot of terrible things to her over the years, from being abusive in their marriage to dragging her to court on unfounded charges more than once (and wiping out her retirement) when I was growing up. She never complained. She cried a bit, but she never complained. My father has stayed with an alcoholic woman for 15 years, knowing that when he had custody of me and my younger sibling temporarily that she abused us. He wasted his share of my sibling's and my PFD money on jewelry for her and she hawked it for booze one rainy night in Georgia.
I think that in the end, the good or the bad wins in a case by case situation, person by person. People remake God in their own image. My father and step mom know the destructive Satan intimately, but don't know it. My mom and step dad don't know the mean god of whom you speak, and they say that church is only a vehicle for learning about God, that He is too huge to comprehend.
Peace be to you.
DeleteGryphen,
ReplyDeleteI come to your site for the variety of things you post.
It's pretty astounding that anyone would even suggest that you should limit yourself to Palin and I can only hope the people who think they have a right to tell you what to post will eventually grow up.
I am tiring of her and, as I have learned with other abusive people, it can be easy to get caught up in spending “all of our time” thinking about them and what they are doing and not taking time for other things that are important to us.
(Sadly it appears the people suggesting you limit yourself to posts about Palin are unable to see that this does have relevance to Palin and others who are held in high regard in Christian communities.)
The finest trick of the devil is to persuade you that he does not exist...
ReplyDeleteWouldn't it be ironic if were revealed that this is exactly what has happened?
It would be easy to do if you withheld original text, kept it hidden and protected, while throwing up a few false flag religions that actually through fear and hatred. This would keep you focused on fear rather than Love, and this actually kept people divided? Imagine, a religion or two that actually conditioned you to believe God (Love) is spiteful, vengeful, and allows suffering because it proves YOUR love of him. Kind of explains how a certain type of person could vote against their own best interest and lend understanding to the sway of Palin, Bachman, Frothy, RawMoney and the likes.
The truth is: Love is good, fear is not, so to go against the truth (love) feeds fear.
Go ahead and ponder that possibility.
Could you imagine waking up one day to find out you've been tricked into supporting evil all along?
Yeah, I might be wrong, but there's a 50-50 chance I could be right.
Finally, If you aren't secure enough with your stance in YOUR faith, and feel attacked by Gryphen's opinion, it sounds to me like the problem is with your faith.
Love, is the answer. Is it not?
Simple propaganda poster from a simple man? Have you ever heard of philosophy and theology? Have you read Pseudo-Dionysius, Chrysostom, Plotinus, Plato, Gregory Nazianzus, Aristotle, etc.? Oh it is true...wikipedia is your source of knowledge as is indicated in your footnote.
ReplyDeleteThe author of this graphic makes an assertion at the end that, based on my years of following the Christian faith and being around others who do, I just don't think Christians really believe, not even in their heart of hearts. What most of us really get around to wondering about is: why does God allow evil?
ReplyDeleteI actually think many people who are not Christians ponder a very similar variation of the question...why does evil exist, is good stronger than evil, etc.
One of the most interesting books I've read in some time that tackled this question is called "The Shack." I highly recommend it. The main character in the story grapples with the worst thing that could ever happen to someone, which leads him to asking this question...and to meeting the Holy Trinity in person. (Spoiler alert: God is a black woman named Papa. The Holy Spirit is an Asian gardener. And Jesus is a manual laborer.)
Thanks, all of you, for the interesting comments posted here.
ReplyDeleteFirst my disclaimer: I was brought up Presbyterian, spent most of my adult life as an agnostic, attended a Unitarian church for a while (and dabbled in its pagan sub-group) before finally converting to the Catholic Church--which does not promote worship of Mary, by the way--just veneration. I've written a few posts trying to persuade people that the Roman Catholic church does not subscribe to young-earth theories or a belief in the Bible as the literal and inerrant word of God, and that most priests are not child molesters, but kind men who work very hard in their parishes. I've also heaped praise on the long, outstanding history of Catholics in the hard sciences, as well as theology and philosophy.
My main comment tonight is this: Gryphen is not a philosopher or theologian, and he doesn't pretend to be. He's a keen and sharp-witted observer of human behavior. And most amazingly of all, he writes several excellent posts every single day. As a former English teacher, this fact alone astounds me.
I'm not offended at all by the Wikipedia chart. It has provoked some thoughtful comments, which is probably what G. intended all along.
P.S. The historian Tacitus wrote about the death of Christ at the hands of Pontius Pilate. Maybe others did as well. History's not my forte.
I'm not a Christian but I can easily explain why your pictograph is "wrong." First is clearly motivated by petty hatred, intended to obfuscate rather than illuminate, and it embraces the same wrong-headed personification strategies of understanding scriptural references to deity that has befuddled the small-minded for centuries. I find the antagonistic atheists as boorishly offensive as the pedantic evangelicals- but hey, that's just me. In a world filled with a diverse rainbow of Christians, your mission is to paint all of them as fools. When you post this trash it looks to me like your hands are pretty well stained with that same pigment.
ReplyDelete-TS
Wikipedia?
ReplyDeleteWikipedia?
Bwahahaha!!!
That's about as "solid" a source as the Bible itself!
Serious fail, Gryph.
(Psst- Didya know the Bible had many, MANY "Books" that were ultimately eliminated b/c of various reasons - and length WAS a consideration! This was an EDITED book - it was meant for people to CARRY with them as they TRAVELLED to different regions to share the stories. EVERY, single story was not able to be included - it would have been like hauling the entire Encyclopedia Brittanica!
And Jesus didn't write it either.
Scientists are unable to explain how there is an image of a face on the Shroud of Turin.
They simply can not explain it.
And the Carbon dating fiasco was like a supernatural laugh, with naysayers saying "Ha ha", when in fact, the true age of the fabric aligns with Christ's timeline.
Look it up.
And explain it, please.
The Shroud of Turin?
DeleteYes everybody knows that there were various gospels left out of the New Testament, as well as that there have been numerous translations of the Old Testament that have been so poor that the book we see today is NOTHING like the original. Ask a Jewish person to explain that to you.
As for the Shroud of Turin, I would certainly NOT want to use that as proof of anything. http://tinyurl.com/7e645jb
http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=261203&v=history&ecid=PRF-2102961&pa=PRF-2102961
ReplyDelete~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hi Gryph! *waves*
This is the program from which I gained my information. Despite the information in your article about the fabric, etc., I stand with the scientists in their question~ HOW does the fabric they have contain an imprint on par with that of geographic mapping?
(FYI to the rest of you: Scientists "ran" the Shroud of Turin through a machine that "mapped" out topographical maps, and the Shroud of Turin actually emitted a THREE DIMENSIONAL Face.
It can't be explained.
Gryph?
Supposing your info of a 3D face is valid (wonder why it's only the face ? You know, the whole body is on the shroud, front and back), that 3D quality could be easily explained.
DeleteSome folks, around 1280, could have taken a man with the right kind of features and accessories, then they covered him in red paint and/or human blood, and they laid him inside a recently woven shroud. Thus they made the imprint, and ta-daa ! Holy Shroud of Turin.
Not very hard to explain, not very hard to do either - once you allow your mind to answer questions that your faith won't accept.
Besides, if that was a 3D face as you claim, the ears would be much farther apart. Have you seen the "Mask of Agamemnon" : that's a surface of gold that has really been mapped on a 3D face : it's oblong, with the bigger size being the width of the face.
How come the Shroud looks like 2 flat pictures of someone ? Of course, it would look like that if it were the imprint of a wooden low-relief sculpture covered in blood...
I've heard some people argue that the imprint was made, not by the blood, but by the Resurrection's energy. And that this spent energy changed the carbon 14 content, so as to make it look as if it had been made in 1300. OK. So the Resurrection's energy flowed exactly perpendular up (and down) from the body's horizontal middle plan, not at all perpendicular from the skin as one would get, and no blurring at all happened, and no energy at all flowed from the sides ?
Let's face it, in his shroud, Jesus was tightly wrapped ; any resulting imprint would be a mosaic of hardly recognizable bloodied bits, separated with white surfaces, where the linen made folds - if one assumes that he was buried with shroud but without ritual washing, which I highly doubt.
Jesus existed, he was maybe buried in a shroud, but not in the Shroud of Turin. The Shroud of Turin is not a proof of the existence of Jesus, it's only a proof of people's gullibility in matters of faith.
The Shroud's history backs its topology. At the time found by the carbon dating, there was a very lucrative trade of holy relics ; the Shroud had never been known as existing before that time ; the imprint was quite clear when the Shroud was "discovered", but now, 700 or 800 years later, its colors have faded so much that it takes a few minutes of constant staring to discern any features on the Shroud.
To get the most known picture of the "Face on the Shroud", one has had to resort to enhance negative pictures...
If the Shroud were 2000 years old, with the same fading rate that we've had during the last 700 years, when it has been mostly kept hidden from light, as to preserve it, nothing would have been visible on it by the time it was "found".
The Catholic Church has never formally recognized it as authentic ; it's an "object of faith", as in, some people believe in it, but it's not an acknowledged relic.
It's *not* two dimensional, like a painting would be.
DeleteThat, is the point.
Sorry for everybody who is Christian and who feels attacked. I'm sure that if they could get past the outrage they always feel when a non-Christian questions their faith, and start thinking, they would come up with the same analysis, though they would use some wording that wouldn't anger them.
ReplyDeleteThe Old Testament's entire message is "Believe in me, or else" ; and still the Chosen People keep on straying... The New Testament calls to gratitude instead of fear, but makes it still obvious that the vast majority of believers don't believe enough. So yes, "Satan" wins, all the time. And to prevent him from totally winning, the believers must spend their lives turned to God / helping God make a difference with all their prayers and whatnots.
I think I remember reading in old religious books that this World was all Satan's, and the Next would be God's (unless one listened to Satan, in that case you were stucked with Satan for all eternity). It's totally in agreement with Gryphen's conclusions.