Of course as many of you know I am somebody who firmly believes that if your belief system cannot stand up to scrutiny it is not worthy of your faith, but that is just me.
I am also somebody who has spent many, many, many hours reading, studying, and attempting to understand the world's religions and the apparently biological compulsion to believe in things for which there is no physical evidence. Thus far I have read the Bible, a portion of the Koran, the I-Ching, the Tao Te Ching, part of the Book of Mormon, and so many books on religion and faith that I have long ago lost count. For me the journey continues.
Ultimately I find it a truly fascinating subject, which is why I love to open it to debate on this blog.
On that same topic it appears we may be moving toward a new age of enlightenment, as the number of atheists is growing exponentially as the number of believers begins to diminish. Well at least in Britain, that is.
Romney, whose Super Tuesday victory speech was aimed solely at Obama, urged nervous Republicans to cease wishing for a new candidate to join the fray.
ReplyDelete“One thing I can tell you for sure is, there’s not going to be a brokered convention where some new person comes in and becomes the nominee,” said Romney in a gleeful CNBC interview.
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Hear that sarah ? That's directed at YOU !!
Easter is coming soon ..
ReplyDeleteWhen Jesus steps out of the cave, and if he sees his shadow, there will be six more weeks of winter.
Bahahaha. I too sent a 'Christian' on an anger drinking binge of hate. Was camping and my friends and I joined what seemed like a friendly middle aged couple for drinks when the subject of religion came up and he asked the big question to which me and my friend relaxedly said we were atheists, hardly thinking it a big deal as you don't meet Christians round our parts. He stood up and began to literally scream at us, and I stood up and looked him in the eyes and used every atheist logic in the book. He just got angrier and angrier and chugged more and more booze. Later he told the entire campsite what heathens we were and made himself look even worse.
ReplyDeleteAnother encounter? A 'Christian' asked me if I was one too. I politely responded in the negative. He, no joke here, actually responded by flipping me the bird and turning his back on me literally to shut me out of the conversation.
I'm sorry but I can respect a real christian, but unfortunately I have only met or heard from a scant few in my entire life. The remaining 97% are slamming you Gryphen for 'mocking their religion' (wtf?) in the comment section and threatening you to stop posting about your beliefs or they will go away (get a move along, I say!), or using their book to justify hating 'others' or generally behaving in reprehensible and unimaginably immature ways when you meet them in person or in a comment thread. It's an undeniable link between belief in these fairy tales and poor behaviour IMHO. Yeah, some of you are great, but most are truly horrible people to meet.
You don't need to disprove christianity, or any other religion for that matter....The burden of proof is on those who make the assertions. Faith as a value is merely pride in being gullible. But you can;t force people to be smart.
ReplyDeleteI had an interesting discussion with my voice teacher, a Methodist Choir Director. The Methodist Church is now rethinking centuries of doctrine, because so many young people look at the church and say, "If that's Christianity, I don't want any part of it." Her Sunday School class is studying some books that talk about how religion changes every 500 years, and that we are in the midst of a big swing, where people are questioning what kind of loving God would allow hunger, killer storms, wars...and what kind of a loving God would deny the afterlife just because someone believed differently from a "Christian." Fascinating stuff, and it may save the world from the evangelical morons who are so cocksure that it's their way or death. Let's hope this takes hold. We're doing the same kinds of discussions in my Brethren congregation.
ReplyDeleteHow many can read Plato, Hume, Jung or Wittgenstein with understanding? Imagine basing one's opinion of the teachings thereof on the average interpretation.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the info, Gryphen. I have my born again IN-laws coming in July for 10 days and am already breaking out in terror sweats at night. I think I will spend some time there and bone up on some good comebacks. Don't know how I am going to get through it.
ReplyDeleteMy sympathies. I still remember meeting my MIL for the first time before our wedding. She sat across from me and told me to make sure I got her son to the church every Sunday.
DeleteI replied, "Whether or not he goes to church or believes or not, is his decision. He is a grown man."
She got flustered and said, "well, what are you going to do, go alone?"
I replied, "no, I am not a believer in organized religion." Mind you, I did not raise my voice or reply with anger. I simply and quietly stated these things, but it had the impact of hitting her with sledge hammer, I guess.
She did not speak to me again - ever. I would have felt badly, but my husband was not upset. He was sitting right beside me during the exchange. He just smiled and took my hand in his. Later he told me how relieved he was that I respected him and stood my own ground in a quiet and dignified way.
I simply saw no reason to argue, but I wasn't going to pretend either.
But you're a believer in non-organized religon aren't you. Now's a good time to state that you are ready to discard it all. Can you do that even though your god's listening?
DeleteSo sorry for the loss of your brain.
DeleteUh, thinking your own death may be imminent probably does, by very definition, cause "emotional distraction".
ReplyDeletehttp://www.christianitydisproved.com/about.html
What's funny about Atheist attempts to "refute" biblical text is that they are guilty of the exact same weakness as Evangelicals. They take everything literally, point by point. They are pleased when they can point out holy text inconsistencies and show that certain prophecies haven't come true (again, taking the words literally rather than metaphorically). Many religious texts are almost poetry, but apparently poetry is not allowed. They have also been transcribed by imperfect human hands and minds - interestingly, just as supposedly irrefutable, static (not) scientific research is done by limited human hands and minds...
In addition, they are only willing to point out the heinous acts done in the name of religion, conveniently ignoring the preponderance of good works being done in those same faiths' names.
I feel sorry for this guy, and I hope he recovers. He seems to feel good about his 100% certitude regarding the non-existence of God, anyway. As usual, it's someone who has had Fundamentalism foisted on them from a young age - hey, I would rebel against that too!
None of us non believers need YOU to 'feel
Deletesorry' for us, thank you very much! Your arrogance is seething throughout every word. You are the sort of person that turns so many of us Gen Yers off religion! You seem to think its only Christians that do good works, and that being atheist is akin to being a fundy
(cont) when it's simply not so. Atheists and agnostics are also moral upright great people who have no problem with the idea of Jesus - a good man - but have a fair issue with his followers, who are overwhelmingly in the words of Ghandi, 'so unlike Christ'. A tiny minority are lovely non judgemental people that accept atheists and agnostics and other religions with a genuine smile and no 'feeling sorry for' or pity, or smears. You certainly don't! I've been a volunteer for charity from my teen years, all atheist, all me, all good works done to help people. I've never had enough money to give to charity myself so I went out there and gave what I could - my time! According to people like yourself, atheists don't do this sort of thing. You seem to believe yourself so above those crackpot fundamentalists but in a way perhaps you are worse, for you are underhanded in your sucker punches and smears of us good non believers, whereas at least the fundies have the guts to come out and tell us to our face that were going to hell and are bad people. It's cowardice IMHO. I apologise if I have taken you the wrong way, but your post read to me as very demeaning towards the ever growing group of people with no faith. Where I'm from I'm the majority. Soon; maybe in your lifetime I hope, you will see yourself relegated to the minority also, and you will understand then. Perhaps.
DeleteYou make a good point. You want us non-believers to take the bible metaphorically. I can do that quite easily because it can't be taken literally. But can you take it all metaphorically or will you just turn back to the literal when it causes your belief system some problems?
DeleteIn actual fact, it's all a big metaphor so be true to your word with it. If more people did that rather than just propose doing that, religon could actually disappear in a few generations. Preferably sooner of course.
"In addition, they are only willing to point out the heinous acts done in the name of religion, conveniently ignoring the preponderance of good works being done in those same faiths' names."
DeleteThat's true. In my county, the only homeless shelter is run by a Christian ministry. There's another Christian organization here that gives direct monetary relief to people having trouble paying their rent and utility bills. Almost all the churches are involved in community outreach, including food pantries and repairing homes, just to give two examples. In fact, I honestly believe that the work of the churches here has kept this county afloat during the recession.
Athiests also never acknowledge that the most recognized humanitarians in history were typically people of faith.
They also think they're smarter than Christians (I use Christians because they rarely disparage other faiths). And hey, a lot probably ARE smarter than me. But I bet not as smart as former President Jimmy Carter, current President Barack Obama, JFK, FDR, MLK, Jr, Chris Hedges, Jim Wallis, Hillary Clinton and other Christians well-known for their intellect.
In every object there is inexhaustible meaning; the eye sees in it what the eye brings means [and desire, I like to add] of seeing. Thomas Carlyle
DeleteWell, it is what it is.
DeleteThe bible thumpers who believe the bible is 100% god's word think everyone else is crazy & unsaved.
The people who don't think the bible is 100% true (or it should be taken as "poetry") think the bible thumpers and everyone else is crazy & unsaved.
So which group is right? Hell, this is not even throwing in all the other religions that believe in god.
So why is there even a bible? If it was of god why would it cause so much trouble? It is either true or not true. It either makes sense or it doesn't.
To me it makes no sense (& I have read it cover to cover many times while I was a bible believer) and now I firmly believe that it was written by men who wanted to have power over their peoples.
At any rate, if you keep your religion to yourself we will get along. If you want to tell me I am going to hell? I don't care. However, start to mess with religion in politics and then you've crossed the line.
Not What You Want To Hear,
DeleteWhat makes you all so defensive?
The atheists I know just want to be left alone. If having a god makes you happy and fulfilled then have at it. I don't care.
The only thing I care about is when christians want to make your views laws. I care when you want to prohibit employers from excluding birth control because it is against their "views" of the bible.
You should also be concerned about rules like these. It is a slippery slope. It is like all the people who are so upset that god is no longer in the schools. This protects EVERYONE.
If you let your prayers in the school then every other religion will be able to do it & you will not like it when the Muslims want it.
Have churches done good things - yes. Have they done horrible things - yes. Do atheists/agnostics give money or donate time to causes - yes.
"To me it makes no sense (& I have read it cover to cover many times while I was a bible believer) and now I firmly believe that it was written by men who wanted to have power over their peoples. "
DeleteVery well said and I agree, i feel it was always about controlling the masses
Looks like an interesting site I'll be spending time at. Thanks for the link.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the link, Gryphen.
ReplyDeleteI wish we could all simply live and let live. There is wisdom in the old admonition to "not discuss religion or politics."
Because politics affects us all, it is difficult to ignore it. Religion, on the other hand, can thrive privately as can lack of religious belief. It is better to simply try live your beliefs (whatever they are or aren't) than to discuss them with people who don't share your own.
The Christians, Buddhists, Hindi, Muslims, atheists and others that I respect are those who live their lives living, not expounding, their faith (or lack thereof). The only time I state I am non-affiliated is when pressed by a devout zealot. It is my attempt to warn them they are crossing a line, invading my personal space, but so few notice. I usually just walk away, leaving them to rant alone.
I was raised in an old fashioned fundamentalist Brethren church - the kind that frowned on rock music, dancing, playing cards - very similar in doctrine and practice to the better known Mennonites. The kind that insisted that the Bible be taken literally. My journey out of religion actually began in childhood when I asked too many questions and never got any answers. I started noticing things that didn't make sense. For instance, let's take the story of Cain and Abel.
ReplyDeleteThe story goes that Adam and Eve had two sons, and one day Cain killed his brother. For this he was banished and God put a mark on Cain so he will not be killed by anyone who finds him. He and his wife went off to the land of Nod and Cain started to build a city, which he named Enoch, after his son.
1. Where did Cain's wife come from?
2. Why does the land of Nod have a name?
3. If he is banished from his parents, why is he afraid someone will kill him. Who else is there?
4. Why is Cain building a CITY for three people?
I use these kinds of questions to get literalists to at least think about their beliefs. I don't argue. I just ask the questions. I still don't get any satisfactory answers, but I feel that I at least get them thinking about things.
You can do this by examining every story told in the book of Genesis. They all have quirky details that make a thinking person go HUH?
You appear to be fighting the irrational with the rational. I would suggest that you're really only trying to convince yourself. Such is the power of the indoctrination you received and will probably never be able to discard completely.
Delete~Satan.
I just finished reading The New Atheism: Taking a Stand for Science and Reason by Victor Stenger. The linked page (Amazon) lets you view the table of contents, first pages, random pages, or the index.
ReplyDeleteI have a fair collection of books which espouse atheism, generally in the "new way"; this book, although it does that, is really about the new atheism, its history and its critics, and responds at length to the critics.
Religion evolved to protect the idea of god from disproof or verification.
ReplyDeleteThank god, Gryphen, for saying what needs to be said.
ReplyDeleteIt's a good site and just one among many out there on the internet that say the same thing. But it's for believers because we who aren't believers don't need to waste time rereading the sky fairy tales that we know are nonsense. Why dwell on it any longer?
ReplyDeleteThe value in the site is in at least being proactive enough to try to counter the religious indoctrination children are receiving as we speak. In America at least, it's still not enough to make the difference required in the few years in which it must be done. I deeply fear that riligion will lead to the downfall of all before we can convince enough people. Sites such as this won't reach them, as it's pretty clear by the number of comments that it's reached few here. Here, amongst the very group of people that should be the easiest to reach!
And so, you think it requires a warning to us to not offend. Perhaps still not understanding that it's hugely offensive to humanity to continue with the ridiculous religious fairy tales of gods in the sky.
Gryphen, ironically, I think you would have been one of Jesus's followers if you'd lived during the times He walked the earth. Or even the period after His crucifixition where Christians had to hide their faith. The moral code He taught was absolutely radical, devastating, revolutionary stuff for those times, which is why they killed Him.
ReplyDeleteAnd when you say that you don't believe any faith that can stand up to scrutiny is worth following, let me tell you, I agree with you. Which is why I believe the moral code Jesus taught us, the true essence of Christianity, more than holds up to scrutiny. Despite how dangerous it was for people to espouse at one time, it took permanent root and some of the most profoundly humanitarian, decent, and good people in history have been followers of this faith.
Christianity Disproved is a garden-variety atheist site. Anonymous 10:17 is correct that it's for believers, specifically those who think the Bible is the literal, inerrant word of God.
ReplyDeleteI contacted the owner and suggested the reading of "Zen Catholicism" by Dom Aelred Graham, "Zen and the Birds of Appetite," by Thomas Merton, or "Falling Upward" by Richard Rohr. Atheists who have at least some understanding of Christian mysticism are more interesting than those who think all Christians are fundamentalists.
The certainty of atheists like Sam Harris is baffling to me. Brilliant though he is, he must lack spiritual curiosity and imagination. I'm not 100% certain God exists, but I try to believe, accepting Pascal's Wager, and most of the time I'm successful. My anti-theist and agnostic friends and I have long discussions on these topics, with the understanding that we're not going to change each other's minds.
Besides Xtians who want to create a theocracy, the only people I find spiritually offensive are those who are too indifferent or mentally lazy to give it any thought. As Gryphen wrote, the journey continues. When we stop seeking, we're spiritually dead.
I didn't watch the video because I already know and understand the falseness to religion and what it does to people in control.
ReplyDeleteMy only thoughts...Bill Maher, you nailed it!
Religion is to brain-wash the masses, it's as simple as that.
But I have to say I watched a recent video of a religious church and (you know the guy who heads the church) from what denomination he came from I don't know but he gave a very good sermon(or whatever you call it) about how Rush Limbaugh was a very horrible person. It was a great listen and if I was to go to church I think I could actually be able to get through it with this guy's voice.
When I was a very young girl and married my husband we went to church every sunday,(Lutheran) we were married in the church, I actually taught a few classes in sunday school. It all seemed ok for me even tho I never grew up with a religious background (my husbands family had that down well)
But then all of a sudden in a small town in Ontario we found that the church we attended in our very young lives had a pastor that was having some sexual relations with the gal that played the organ(i might have spelt that wrong) I don't know? Is that hypocrisy? The very lessons he taught to my husband and I prior to marrying went totally out the window in one instant! I mean after all, I guess the pastor was just human like the rest of us, at least he wasn't screwing little boys like some of these creeps with cloaks.
This Pastor left our small town with his tail between his legs along with his forgiving wife. What happened to him to this day I have no idea but I would like to know because he married us, we had pre-marital meetings with him. He just vanished, not to be spoke about ever again. He was a good person, and very respected yet he showed in the end that he was a hypocrite in his words to his congregation. Everything he preached every sunday went out the window like a breeze to all of his followers.
Religion= Control of the Masses and Money
I won't even get into Scientology, the most corrupt religion ever invented with space odysseys
I just want to also say, In Canada we don't hugely bring up religion. It just isn't a conversation mostly in day to day routine. We mostly turn the eye to anyone preaching religion vocally, and it is extremely rare. Religion is not part of politics in Canada(maybe Alberta). Church people keep to themselves and non church going people keep to themselves. Nobody is ramming it down anyone's throats here. I think the majority of Canadians feel this is a private thing, you want to believe whatever you want, go ahead, it's none of my business but keep that shit to yourself.
ReplyDeleteAnd then we have the mormons leaving pamphlets at our doors. You can smell them before they even ring the door-bell. I can't imagine the amount of crap they've had to deal with these poor mormons. I usually slam their religion right up their arse with shutting the door on them. It's the only way to handle them as they keep coming back like an infested tick on a dog. You just can't shame these ass's. No matter how many doors are slammed on them they just keep on keepin' on. When are they going to get it?
If you are serious about your reading you should read Bishop Spong. From his manifesto:
ReplyDelete1. Theism, as a way of defining God, is dead. So most theological God-talk is today meaningless. A new way to speak of God must be found.
2. Since God can no longer be conceived in theistic terms, it becomes nonsensical to seek to understand Jesus as the incarnation of the theistic deity. So the Christology of the ages is bankrupt.
3. The Biblical story of the perfect and finished creation from which human beings fell into sin is pre-Darwinian mythology and post-Darwinian nonsense.
4. The virgin birth, understood as literal biology, makes Christ's divinity, as traditionally understood, impossible.
5. The miracle stories of the New Testament can no longer be interpreted in a post-Newtonian world as supernatural events performed by an incarnate deity.
6. The view of the cross as the sacrifice for the sins of the world is a barbarian idea based on primitive concepts of God and must be dismissed.
7. Resurrection is an action of God. Jesus was raised into the meaning of God. It therefore cannot be a physical resuscitation occurring inside human history.
8. The story of the Ascension assumed a three-tiered universe and is therefore not capable of being translated into the concepts of a post-Copernican space age.
9. There is no external, objective, revealed standard written in scripture or on tablets of stone that will govern our ethical behavior for all time.
10. Prayer cannot be a request made to a theistic deity to act in human history in a particular way.
11. The hope for life after death must be separated forever from the behavior control mentality of reward and punishment. The Church must abandon, therefore, its reliance on guilt as a motivator of behavior.
12. All human beings bear God's image and must be respected for what each person is. Therefore, no external description of one's being, whether based on race, ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation, can properly be used as the basis for either rejection or discrimination.
http://johnshelbyspong.com/
Others in this vein are John Dominic Crosson, Marcus Borg and Stephen Patterson.
You might learn something new.
These people are connected to the Jesus Seminar. Their goal is to find the historic person of Jesus and the true meaning of his life. They have researched for years to find what Jesus actually said and did, who he was. Their efforts are to weed out all the extraneous rituals, myths, political agendas, etc. that have been added since Jesus lived and since the Bible was written, also rewritten, added to, warped, etc. They counteract much of what now has been put forth as "Christian", find it false. And, they are Christian.
DeleteI read the whole site and found it unimpressive and simplistic.
ReplyDeleteI have been studying religions and their histories for quite a while. I can tell that the author of this site has read some of the same books as I have. But I can also tell that he has not yet read widely enough to get out of his simplistic, “literalist” mindset—often the curse of those raised in fundamentalist religions.
The bible is *not* to be interpreted in a strictly literal way. Those that do don’t seem to realize that people of all ages have used sarcasm, metaphor, and parable in their speech. Also, there have been many translations of the bible through the ages—each one occurring further in time away from the events, and thus further from the language, idioms, beliefs, and customs of the culture that gave it rise. So taking issue with specific cherry-picked phrases and concepts found in the bible is an exercise in futility.
The fact that science experiments with magnets were able to induce religious feelings is interesting, but it explains only the physiological mechanism involved in such feeling, not the cause.
The thing that bugs me about most modern atheists isn’t that they don’t believe in God, it’s the sheer, almost religious arrogance with which they express and explain their new belief system, and the disdain with which they view their “unenlightened” fellows.
"The thing that bugs me about most modern atheists isn’t that they don’t believe in God, it’s the sheer, almost religious arrogance with which they express and explain their new belief system, and the disdain with which they view their “unenlightened” fellows."
ReplyDeleteThe same thing could be said about christians. It just depends upon which side of the fence you are on. I find the outspoken christians are just as arrogant & are, quite frankly, hateful. These are the people REPRESENTING christianity. Atheists aren't representing christianity.
Talk to a born-again who believes the bible is to be taken literally. Go to one of their websites & tell them what you think. I'll bet you find out pretty darn quick how they can turn on ANOTHER christian. These are the same people who want our country to be run with their viewpoint.
Perhaps you should focus on them.
Hey,@5:06am. 5:43pm here.
ReplyDeleteI am not a christian. And believe me, I KNOW how freaking arrogant some christians (not all)can be! That's what's interesting. Listening to some of these atheists, they sound just as arrogant as the christians they love to put down.
The Fundamentalist mindset is fundamentalist mindset, no matter what the belief system.