As much as modern Christians might want to move away from the primitive guidelines and fables represented in the Old Testament, they really cannot. At least not unless they want to identify Jesus as nothing more than a philosopher and remove all of his miraculous abilities and identification as the Messiah whose birth was predicted in Scripture?
I'd be cool with that. What do you say?
Similarly: http://i48.tinypic.com/313owop.jpg
ReplyDelete"However what cannot be ignored is that Jesus was a rabbi"
ReplyDeleteGryphen, even that much is supposition. There is no contemporaneous record of Jesus' existence. But I would simply ask, if this is a pure belief, of what value is empirical evidence?
Would believers believe more fervently if proof existed of Jesus' physical presence? And if they would, then that indicates a weakness in the pure belief of faith. Not good.
And for non-believers: would proof of the existence of a Jesus lend any credence to the myth of an actual man-god (god-man?), offspring of the Creator of the Universe? I think not.
The New Testament builds on the Old Testament in much the same way as New Coke evolved from Old Coke. But just remember, Old Coke evolved from previous products, too (most likely 19th century spittoon polish, but that's a story for another time)
I'm sure you can find poor Babylonian peasants even today who kick themselves because their ancestors who invented the 'virgin birth' myth, or the 'big flood' myth or the 'resurrection' myth, didnt secure a lucrative copyright when they had the chance.
(Interestingly, the myths of 'the vanishing lentil soup', 'the sparrow that magically turned into an identical but different sparrow' and 'the bearded woman with a penis' fell from favor over the years and were mostly ignored by early 1st century theologians....)
Remember, it's turtles all the way down...
Jesus was a rabbi. If you looked up the Hebrew word "rabi" from which it was translated, you would know that it means spiritual master or teacher.
DeleteHere's another factoid for you: there are no highly-credentialed Biblical scholars who think Jesus did not exist. Some of them are agnostics, but they don't deny the historicity of Jesus.
You can be an agnostic or atheist without posting poorly informed criticisms of Christianity.
Actually, I don't remember any time when Jesus was teaching any parts of the scriptures. He was always making up his own parables, his own stories, mostly about trying to have people being good to each other and loving the Father. He never talked about not working on the sabbeth, or not eating pork, or shunning the samaritan, remember he took water from the woman at the well? Other Jews at the time wouldn't. He kicked out the money changers, another old Jewish tradition. He was a rebel.
ReplyDeleteAs I once explained to my eight grade nun, the "bible" we were studying really (really, really) confused me by NOT discussing whether Christ died for the sentient beings inhabiting other worlds in our galaxy and beyond.
ReplyDeleteShe never got back to me with an answer. Kind of like Romney and his tax returns.
Yours was a hypothetical question, since we don't know if there are sentient beings inhabiting other worlds. What did you expect her to say? I think she gave you the answer your question deserved.
DeleteUh, no. I don't think "most" of the people at IM who identify as Christian do so as "Christian lite".
ReplyDeleteYou are really starting to become a chore sometimes with your anti religion crap, Gryphen. You know you're my boo but it's time you started ascribing stupid behavior to stupid people- NOT "Christian" people.
I personally believe the literal translation of Jesus' words- that the old testament was old law, old covenant; acknowledged as an ugly time- but Jesus bridges the gap between that and the new testament.
That is why I don't get all these Christians who are so anti gay. The part of old testament scripture which says being gay is "abominable" to God- ALSO says in the very same passage that man shaving his beard (ever) is an abomination. Same goes for "Biblical" marriage defenders. Most marriages were mentioned in the old testament and very VERY few were singular man + singular woman unions.
At the end of the day, Jesus was just a kindhearted dude who said above all else, show love to those around you. And yes- I DO think the world would be a better place if everyone adopted a little of that philosophy.
Amen to that, Nyah . . . as this constant anti-Christian tripe is sounding more and more like Palin's brand the ignorance.
DeleteNuff said.
No, it's the self-righteous pro-Christian tripe that is Palin-like.
DeleteSarah Palin's true reality: 'Free' Alaska is a welfare state that enjoys generous federal subsidies
ReplyDeleteRead more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/sarah-palin-true-reality-free-alaska-a-welfare-state-enjoys-generous-federal-subsidies-article-1.451216#ixzz23NQAy1RO
"...identify Jesus as nothing more than a philosopher..."
ReplyDeleteWell, ya gotta admit it sure has turned out extremely handy for the God industry that Jesus wrote down not a single line of his thoughts. The opportunity to CREATE an endlessly changing philosophy needing lots of interpretation is a real money maker. Especially when backed by the threat of eternal damnation as a purchasing incentive. Best little marketing scheme since the guy that sold the Egyptians on building the pyramids.
Truly as a born and bred Atheist I couldn't care either way. Nothing that any person of any religion does holds any interest to me. It's just something that I personally can't relate to, I don't have a blueprint, so to speak. They live their lives and I live mine. Atheists and people of faith have vastly different philosophies. That's what makes life interesting.
ReplyDeleteI swear to goodness , I really do think you lay awake Saturday evenings trying to come up with an angle for your Sunday post that will truly piss "christian" people off, including readers that are open minded Christians who live life by a code of "love your neighbor, always". The way you're putting things out there the past months, you're not a very attractive representative of the atheist philosophy.
ReplyDeletemost people who rail against institutions are really just saying to their parents what they have always been afraid to say to their parents.
DeleteWell, from my Catholic upbringing, I understand that the rending of the temple's curtain at the time of the crucifixion was the delineation between the Old and New Testaments. Yes, Christ was a product of the Old Testament but his death and resurrection signified a new beginning. It's a bit like people moving to a different country and making it their own: their old world and culture still exists for them but they embrace the new world.
ReplyDeleteGryph
ReplyDeleteWhen you show respect for my faith, I will show respect for you choice of having no faith. I do respect your beliefs and share essentially all of them.
Disrespecting other people's faith is called bigotry. Disrespect for other people who have no faith is called pity.
I do wish you would get off this kick of knocking other's beliefs. It certainly keep me away most days, and probably does others as well.
Why should Gryphen show respect for your faith if he doesn't HAVE any respect for it? Why is that bigotry? It's simply a reflection of reality. He's not stopping you from believing anything you want.
DeleteI have no respect for your beliefs either. I used to pay lip service to such things. Then I looked around. I realized that if I respected YOUR religious beliefs, I had to respect Osama bin Laden's or Franklin Graham's or a radical Hasidic Jew. They are all "believers" too are they not? And I said fuck that shit.
What's that you say? Yeah, but THEY don't believe what YOU do?
See where I'm going with this? So AFAIC you can take your smug, superior belief system and shove it. You are no better than anyone else.
BTW, I am not an atheist as Gryphen is - I fall into the "I just don't have the slightest CLUE" category. But I do know that there is zero proof for any of the religious belief systems that have been forced down the rest of humanity's throat by power mad, delusional, almost always misogynistic and BIGOTED assholes.
O/T Palin will not speak at Republican convention
ReplyDeletehttp://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/12/us-palin-
convention-idUSBRE87B0PV20120812
As I recall…
ReplyDeleteHe may have been the one predicted, but so was John the Baptist. Jesus and John the Baptist, both predicted, and John then bowed to Jesus. I think the virgin birth was a latter overlay, just as Christmas was placed on top of the winter solstice.
Jesus was Jewish, but he was trying to change society. He was trying to make religion less onerous. He didn’t seem to care about same-sex or adultery. He implied that people did things out of necessity/ lust and should be forgiven. I’ve always read the rough stuff, and he was very forgiving of human nature.
He was HARSH on hypocrites, though… heads up, Sarah.
Identifying Jesus as a philosopher is still inaccurate.
ReplyDeleteThere is zero evidence the person now known as Jesus Christ ever even existed.
Zero, zilch, nada. The gospel were written long after the fact, long after he supposedly lived (and we know how accurate even eye witness accounts are NOT). Just as there are no eye witness accounts of Jesus Christ, there is no documentation of Jesus Christ anywhere in the historical record. The ONLY mention made of him at all was (like the gospels) added after the fact.
So please, let's stop pretending Jesus Christ even existed. There is more proof for UFO's than Jesus Christ.
You're wrong. Look it up. Google is your friend.
DeleteNo documentation of Jesus anywhere in the historical record? So wrong!
DeleteTacitus and Josephus were two historians who wrote about Jesus a few decades after his death. Each man used different sources from which they drew their accounts of Christ, his followers, and his execution.
Yes, use Google and tackle this experiment. See how many Biblical scholars believe Jesus existed, as opposed to any who doubt he ever lived. Or I can save you some time by telling you that there are no serious academics who have studied the ancient world and the Bible who think that the "Cristos" did not exist. New Testament scholar Dominic Crossan is adamant that the crucifixion of Jesus is documented better than most incidents of that time period.
You cannot count H. G. Wells as a serious Jesus denier. He was a writer of entertaining fiction with no credentials to challenge Jesus's existence.
It's official ... God slammed the door shut on Sarah!
ReplyDeleteWASHINGTON, Aug 12 (Reuters) - Former vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin will not speak at the U.S. Republican nominating convention in Tampa later this month, she said in statement on Sunday.
I don' t agree with your premise, at least from my church experience. As a mainline Presbyterian, I was taught not to take the Old and New Testaments literally, and to consider the cultural and historial contexts- plus difficulties caused by numerous translations.
ReplyDeleteThat said, the lessons and life of Jesus Christ- and the prophets and Apostles- provide a guide for my life... not easy to follow, but a path. I am uncomfortable evangelizing- but try to model what my faith means to me. And I was taught to honor and repsect other religions- or the lack thereof. The Golden Rule appears in allmajor faiths...
COalmostNative
At the Olympics closing ceremony, the salute to British music began with "Imagine". See http://blogs.wsj.com/dailyfix/2012/08/12/olympic-live-blog-closing-ceremony/
ReplyDeleteScroll down to 2:10 pm, where Matthew Futterman wrote: 'OK, you had me at the first note of “Imagine." Always gets me.' and read up from there. Futterman again at 2:12: 'Is it possible for someone who has been dead for 32 years to steal the show? I think so.'
Anyone who can catch a rebroadcast of the ceremony, really should.
John Lennon gets me every time, especially "Imagine".
DeleteThey really did an excellent job, but lost me a bit with the hip hop and pop mash up of the Bee Gee's. Not to give too much away, John Cleese singing "Always look on the bright side of life" with the nuns on skates and dancing maharishis had me chuckling.
This morning my minister said this: taking stories from the bible literally has been destructive to our world for centuries.
ReplyDeleteThat's why I go there.
She looks the way such Christians want to see Jesus, white, attractive and non-threatening. No wonder they would settle for Mitt Romney.
ReplyDeletei still can't figure out why christian women don't follow the bible and sacrifice 2 birds each time they have their period...that's right, the bible says that women's periods are a sin and require the sacrifice of birds to god to forgive them for it...
ReplyDeletebut there's always an excuse by christian women on why they don't follow this...either it's the word of god or it isn't and god's word says your period is a sin...
Can you give me chapter and verse on that, please?
DeleteI've read the Bible (and many other religious texts) and I don't recall that part.
Thanks in advance.
That's from the Old Testament Mosaic Law, written by Jews, for Jews, handed down to them by God, according to the allegory.
DeleteChristians are obviously not Jews. Read the New Testament to learn about the new covenant brought to us by, who else, Jesus Christ.
It's a good idea to educate yourself on an issue before you post critical comments.
You're pretty obviously 1st generation out of the church so you better just get it out of your system. My great grandparents and each generation since were enlightened cultural relativists so to me, all this angst sounds pretty juvenile.
ReplyDeleteYou are so completely desperate for attention, Gryphen.
ReplyDeleteIf you are confident in your views, hold them with poise and dignity and stop trying to bait people with your disrespect.
Someone who is truly secure does not need to do this.
Were you drinking when you posted this? Do you get into moods and collect these little graphics from your high school friends?
Really and truly try to just read Jesus's teachings as they are presented in the Bible, and then call those teachings evil. I dare you.
Amen to everything you wrote.
DeleteThere's a lot of evil stuff in the Bible, and it involves all sorts of stuff, murder, stone throwing, beheadings, onanism, polygamy, women being punished for various and sundry feminine things, but there's some great public safety advice as well, keeping Kosher was a necessity in nomadic populations. Milk would spoil and contaminate other foods, so the separate vessels for different foods was a great idea. Not eating pork may have been due to trichinosis or other colven hoove afflicting disease.
ReplyDeleteMy favorites were the magic tricks. Turning water into wine and Lott's wife into a salt lick would surely be icebreakers at any party.
Even an Atheist can appreciate Guido Sarducci and Life of Brian.
I, for one, enjoy Gryphon's religious posts. Those that are confident and secure in their beliefs won't feel threatened or demand that they have respect. I only respect your RIGHT TO BELIEVE. I don't feel obligated to respect what you believe. I find it interesting simply to compare people's behaviors and actions to what they purport to believe. They often don't match.
ReplyDeleteI used to work with a guy named George who was a Catholic. I've never known a person more secure in his faith. George was intelligent and would listen to discussions about religious faith and agree that parts of the Bible were contradictory or even nonsense...
ReplyDeleteand then quietly continue to go to his church on Sunday and worship faithfully.
I had and still have nothing but respect for George and his unwavering faith.
George was honest and kind, trustworthy and polite, non-judgmental and a good friend in need and in deed.
The world would be a much better place with more people like George.
So believing in nonsense isn't always destructive, I guess.
What I think, Gryphen, is that you need to do a lot more reading and study before you spout off about Jesus and Christians.
ReplyDeleteBe as atheist as you like. That's fine. Atheists can certainly be as moral as any believer in any religion.
You have many commenters who are people of faith, and you insult all of us, although you know nothing about us personally. Indeed it is prejudice, which means pre-judging, to make pronouncements about topics about which you know very little--like Christianity, and how we live our faith. Your painful personal experiences are not representative of anything Jesus taught.
And to the people who harp on their feeling that there's no evidence Jesus existed, do some research. You will not find a serious Biblical scholar who doubts that Jesus existed. You can start with Prof. Bart Ehrman, who was raised evangelical and is now an agnostic. Or wade through Tacitus, Josephus or other ancient historian--not contemporaneous with Jesus, but close.
The only good thing about your anti-Christian posts is that they make a change from Bristol Palin and Levi drivel.
G, you're getting obnoxious even to this agnostic, and I have a high tolerance for BS.
ReplyDeleteSome people can inform themselves of science and religion. These people are better informed than those who can only stomach one. Talk about embracing ignorance!
ReplyDeleteGryph, I had a friend who was an Evangelical, Christian Rocket Scientist. Literally. I wish you could hear him speak about how his scientific mind explores the Bible, both OT and NT, and marvels at intricate details of God, as seen through his scientific eyes. He even did a thorough research of Jesus' DNA. For example, in all those "begats", several women are mentioned, including Rahab, who was a Gentile. And a whore. Until she saw the power of God & followed His chosen people. Jesus was one of her descendants, and he had several things to say about people like her who become believers, and those who shun them.
ReplyDeleteThe point is, some Christians have a shallow, child-like belief and resent others who question it, like a child who is told there is no Santa Claus.
However, there are some very, very smart people who don't just listen to what they are told and believe. They investigate, they probe deeply, they ask questions and come away with their own conclusions. Some come away with skepticism, some come away with a vastly life-altering belief that this all-powerful God of the Universe desires more than anything to love Man, and to be adored by him..., but only after he has chosen to do so of his own free will.
The loud, obnoxious Christians are the ones who turn people off and make their lives miserable by being so judgmental. The Christians you would probably admire most are the ones who live their life with a deep, quiet, confident, abiding faith that gets them through life's ups and downs. Too bad you hardly ever hear from them.